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Thread started 08 Sep 2014 (Monday) 20:30
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creepy old guy photographing miggle school girls

 
1Tanker
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Sep 12, 2014 18:35 |  #31

losangelino wrote in post #17148609 (external link)
You're right both are not crimes. But it is also indicative of behavior that may be criminal. If one is 50 years old and he's been masturbating to children since he was 18 (btw no one just one day becomes attracted to a child. People are attracted to what they're attracted to at adolescence), then for 32 years he's been dreaming about sex with kids. And has been reinforcing the behavior and thoughts of sex with minors with the sexual self gratification. If given the opportunity would he? I bet yes. But even if we don't know, would you want your kids around him. it is a good idea for parents and teachers to keep an eye on people like him. There is no overreaction in reporting suspicious activity. Let the police and courts and jury of peers decide. There is a lot of steps involved. A very small percentage of child molesters are ever reported. An even smaller percentage of them arrested. And a percentage of that percentage--convicted.

But about 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys are sexually abused in the us. It's a large number. Which means as a society not enough is being done.

This isn't new..it's been going on for 100's of years. Just that now, people are encouraged to come forward. Oh... of those 1in 3 or 1 in 5 abused, i'm willing to bet that 90%+ of the crimes have been committed by family/friends of the family... not some guy at the park with a camera.
Too many CSI/Criminal Minds type shows are making us super-paranoid.

Xyclopx wrote:
along these lines...

I like to take street shots. and I am fully aware I appear creepy to 99% of people. half the people who see me give me a wtf look. and there are plenty of times I have seen kids who I thought would have looked amazing in a candid shot but I couldn't bring myself to do it because of all the people who posted in this thread. it is purely for artistic reasons I want the shot but immediately everyone assumes the worst.

I've been told that in Europe it is far more common to take pictures of other people's kids and people don't automatically think along the lines of these. do you think there are less sickos in Europe? for a country built on freedoms we seem the most active in taking away rights.

do you think it's right for cops to profile against blacks? what makes you think it's okay to profile against photographers?

many hypocrites here. people don't want to be hassled about their right to take pics in public spaces yet that is exactly what is happening here, by photographers themselves.

heck, I even hesitated to post this post just in case google causes problems for me later. but well, someone has to say it.

look, men like grown women. many men will do things in private looking at grown women. BUT, most men will not hurt a grown woman. I am not saying it is right, but it is logical to think most people would not hurt kids either. there are sick people out there, but don't be a hypocrite and assume of them what you don't want others to assume of you.

...and lastly, do you think it's harmless to tell the principal? to "alert" the authorities? have YOU been hassled before? I am profiled constantly for the car I drive. I've been pulled over many many times for the stupidest reasons. some cops even have apologized to me afterwards. and because of this, every single time I see a cop my heart jumps out of my chest. EVERY TIME. it is NOT harmless just to tell.

I can relate...100%. Good post.

While it may seem "harmless", being accused of, or it being insinuated that he was "perving out", it could very well cause him no end of hassles.. for years to come(which would be a shame if he's not doing anything untoward).


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Sep 12, 2014 19:02 |  #32

1Tanker wrote in post #17150876 (external link)
This isn't new..it's been going on for 100's of years. Just that now, people are encouraged to come forward. Oh... of those 1in 3 or 1 in 5 abused, i'm willing to bet that 90%+ of the crimes have been committed by family/friends of the family... not some guy at the park with a camera.
Too many CSI/Criminal Minds type shows are making us super-paranoid.

You're right. Most are done by family and not photographers. Like everything else society has to find a balance of sense of freedom and safety/security. The arguments here show that most people fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. But a person lurking around a school regularly with no business there and a camera should at least expect to be questioned.

In my view the "hassle" a child experiences if s/he were abused is a lifelong trauma versus a photographer adult who may get pissed off. If they were wrong about him he could shake it off. You see where I fall on the spectrum. But I not saying anyone else is wrong I'm just careful when my kids are at a school because I know that monsters are real. And that's not a tv show. The statistics are real http://www.nsopw.gov …tion/FactsMyths​Statistics (external link)



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Sep 12, 2014 19:09 |  #33

Xyclopx wrote in post #17150587 (external link)
Typical profiling material

Numerous incidents in a black c4 corvette

Followed 2mi from my house to a restaurant in my brand new corvette c5 z06. Into the parking lot. Got out of my car. Then the cop turned and left.

Followed 3mi from a gas station I a beat up 86 corolla. Onto freeway. Cop pulled me over and apologized.

Pulled over randomly in vegas with my new Evo x. No reason. Cop said nice car.

Not too much happened in my s2000.

Anyway... Yes I agree guy is suspicious. But that's why we teach that people have rights and profiling is wrong.

Why is sexual harassment wrong when there will be no immediate danger? Why do we not follow black kids just cause they wear hoodies? Etc. the obvious answer is because harassment itself is harmful.

Let's say the principal talks to him and he never comes back. Would you feel good about the fact that u made a person feel bad about doing something completely within his rights?

I admit I'm a sucky street photog. When people approach me I put away my camera. Yeah I look heall suspicious standing in the corner under shadows point my camera at people. But I'm a nice guy and it's the only way for someone of my skill level to get that shot. If u was at the park taking pictures of pretty girls running by what does one immediately think??? Right. And I assure you I am not that.

Well anyway just something to think about. I don't think any minds will be changed but as long as the seed is there I am happy enough.

I'm not clear on what your viewpoint is here! Do you support the idea of questioning the guy (whether police or school officials) or just leaving him alone to do whatever he wants to do, no questions asked?


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Sep 12, 2014 19:12 |  #34

oh, I agree, I know it's perfectly legal and all that. I first asked other parents but once I heard that others had observed the same (just not the camera) I thought I'd let the principal know, which I did. And he knew exactly whom I was talking about, so they have an eye on this guy. It's not just me being paranoid, even though I've crossed paths with pervs before, which maybe has me on a higher alert level.
My sister was attacked when she was about 6 in the woods behind my parents house in Germany (over 40 years ago) and I was able to scare the guy off before he could get further than grabbing her from behind and holding her mouth shut.
I caught a guy at Safeway looking up women's skirts with a mirror he had placed in his hand basked and shoved under them at checkout. He was pretending to look at the trash magazines but was sweating and shaking, which made me look. I reported him as well.
And me being a photographer I noticed the guy taking a picture and looked what could be worth taking a picture of and since there's nothing but a maintenance yard fence, dirt, and a group of girls walking by, the deduction was pretty obvious.

So I don't feel bad about it in any way and would report this again.

As for the clothing, it's not the issue here. He could also stand on the sidewalk outside our community pool with a long lens taking pictures of girls. Perfectly legal as well, and I'd still report him, as would most others I think.

I'd not care one bit if somebody asks me what I'm doing and I don't see where him being asked what he's up to would do anything for years to come? It's not like they'll stamp him or put pictures in the paper. Somebody doing something out of the ordinary can't really be surprised if they get asked about it.

Nobody can accuse him about "perving out", but anybody can question what he's up to, no? To me it seemed seedy, and I'm glad I reported it. And if I see him there again, I'll report it again, as I was instructed by the principal.

Even if I could get out of the car there, which I can't, I'd not confront him personally, I don't care what they say about horses and riding into battle. :-)

And since there's so much talk about 'allowing' girls to wear short skirts or what ever (I thought we live in the land of the free?), here's the dress code, in that regard. Can't quite require our girls to dress like nuns or 18th century people (which didn't help in Salem either I believe):


No strapless tops or low cut tops, spaghetti strap tanks, or clothing that exposes bare-midriff, undergarments, or straps.

Skirt and shorts length must be at thumb length with arms held at sides.

Mesh or see-through tops must be worn with an opaque undershirt that covers the entire midriff.

Clothing must be in a good state of repair. Garments with tears, or holes that expose the skin beneath are not permitted.

Outfits which show, or appear to show undergarments are not permitted.

Sagging pants are not allowed.

Students in violation of the Dress Code will be required to change into alternate clothes.


==========

Anyway, I'm glad that most agree with me and I'm glad I let the principal know.


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Sep 12, 2014 19:21 |  #35

phantelope, you say the principal "approached" this man last year. Did the principal tell you anything informative about that encounter? Like, did they talk, and did the man explain why he was taking pictures?


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Sep 12, 2014 20:02 |  #36

phantelope wrote in post #17150934 (external link)
oh, I agree, I know it's perfectly legal and all that. I first asked other parents but once I heard that others had observed the same (just not the camera) I thought I'd let the principal know, which I did. And he knew exactly whom I was talking about, so they have an eye on this guy. It's not just me being paranoid, even though I've crossed paths with pervs before, which maybe has me on a higher alert level.
My sister was attacked when she was about 6 in the woods behind my parents house in Germany (over 40 years ago) and I was able to scare the guy off before he could get further than grabbing her from behind and holding her mouth shut.
I caught a guy at Safeway looking up women's skirts with a mirror he had placed in his hand basked and shoved under them at checkout. He was pretending to look at the trash magazines but was sweating and shaking, which made me look. I reported him as well.
And me being a photographer I noticed the guy taking a picture and looked what could be worth taking a picture of and since there's nothing but a maintenance yard fence, dirt, and a group of girls walking by, the deduction was pretty obvious.

So I don't feel bad about it in any way and would report this again.

As for the clothing, it's not the issue here. He could also stand on the sidewalk outside our community pool with a long lens taking pictures of girls. Perfectly legal as well, and I'd still report him, as would most others I think.

I'd not care one bit if somebody asks me what I'm doing and I don't see where him being asked what he's up to would do anything for years to come? It's not like they'll stamp him or put pictures in the paper. Somebody doing something out of the ordinary can't really be surprised if they get asked about it.

Nobody can accuse him about "perving out", but anybody can question what he's up to, no? To me it seemed seedy, and I'm glad I reported it. And if I see him there again, I'll report it again, as I was instructed by the principal.

Even if I could get out of the car there, which I can't, I'd not confront him personally, I don't care what they say about horses and riding into battle. :-)

And since there's so much talk about 'allowing' girls to wear short skirts or what ever (I thought we live in the land of the free?), here's the dress code, in that regard. Can't quite require our girls to dress like nuns or 18th century people (which didn't help in Salem either I believe):


No strapless tops or low cut tops, spaghetti strap tanks, or clothing that exposes bare-midriff, undergarments, or straps.

Skirt and shorts length must be at thumb length with arms held at sides.

Mesh or see-through tops must be worn with an opaque undershirt that covers the entire midriff.

Clothing must be in a good state of repair. Garments with tears, or holes that expose the skin beneath are not permitted.

Outfits which show, or appear to show undergarments are not permitted.

Sagging pants are not allowed.

Students in violation of the Dress Code will be required to change into alternate clothes.



==========

Anyway, I'm glad that most agree with me and I'm glad I let the principal know.

Sounds quite reasonable.


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Sep 12, 2014 20:25 |  #37

phantelope wrote in post #17150934 (external link)
No strapless tops or low cut tops, spaghetti strap tanks, or clothing that exposes bare-midriff, undergarments, or straps.

Skirt and shorts length must be at thumb length with arms held at sides.

Mesh or see-through tops must be worn with an opaque undershirt that covers the entire midriff.

Clothing must be in a good state of repair. Garments with tears, or holes that expose the skin beneath are not permitted.

Outfits which show, or appear to show undergarments are not permitted.

Sagging pants are not allowed.

Students in violation of the Dress Code will be required to change into alternate clothes.

I hope those are your words, not the school's. If they are the school's, the principal needs to go back to school.




  
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Sep 13, 2014 10:57 |  #38

principal did not tell me more (probably can't). And the dress code is from the district and just about the same as at any other school in CA.

As for those defending street photography, I love street photography, just received a book about Henri Cartier-Bresson, but there are different shades here. What would you say if a guy hides in the shadows every couple of days across from your house and takes pictures of your kids on the way to school? You go and ask him and he says it's his "art". I'd be creeped out and report him, even though it would be totally legal. Or a guy taking photos of you every day you get in your car or leave work, etc.

I know it's a fine line and I thought about this for a day, talked to other parents, before I sent my e-mail.

And they do enforce the dress code, my boy had torn jeans once and was told he can't wear them again, was just a small tear at the knee (and he thought it's so cool, :-) )

I think the dress code is very reasonable, it's hot here (100 degree every day the last week) and all the kids are nicely dressed. And I'm glad saggy pants are banned, but that's an other topic :-D


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Sep 13, 2014 11:56 |  #39

phantelope wrote in post #17151930 (external link)
What would you say if a guy hides in the shadows every couple of days across from your house and takes pictures of your kids on the way to school? You go and ask him and he says it's his "art". I'd be creeped out and report him, even though it would be totally legal.

You said there's a fine line. Yep, there sure is. He may be "hiding in the shadows" because he can't see the LCD screen in sunlight. And it's cooler under a tree.


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Sep 13, 2014 12:09 |  #40

OhLook wrote in post #17152019 (external link)
You said there's a fine line. Yep, there sure is. He may be "hiding in the shadows" because he can't see the LCD screen in sunlight. And it's cooler under a tree.

This is true. The leopard may be hiding in the shadows because it is more comfortable and be merely watching the antelope pass by. But should the antelope take that chance?




  
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Sep 13, 2014 13:52 |  #41

We profile, it's basic nature learned thru experience. We smell food to see if it's bad before we eat it. We use our senses to make a presumption about the good or bad of something. Past Experience leads to profiling based on historical data, it's not a bad thing, and is a valuable tool sometimes. It's how people act upon it that can be bad.

Let the hate begin....


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Sep 13, 2014 14:15 |  #42

call the cops and let then sort it out.


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Sep 21, 2014 05:11 as a reply to  @ jptsr1's post |  #43

Its wise to be observant, but if you want to act, or have police act, based on what he might do, that's a slippery slope to go down.


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Sep 21, 2014 05:25 |  #44

losangelino wrote in post #17148609 (external link)
But about 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys are sexually abused in the us. It's a large number. Which means as a society not enough is being done.

And the majority of abuse is from a person in the family or close to the family.


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Sep 21, 2014 06:55 |  #45

The title to this post says it all to me. “creepy old guy photographing miggle school girls”
I’d be completely freaked out if I saw someone photographing MIGGLE girls too. I mean wow, that is totally creepalicious..
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