Canon officially announces the 7D Mark II

monkey44 wrote in post #17165064
Tom D Quote: "All this time their pictures have been getting worse and worse as their camera got older and older"

Why would a camera take a worse picture just because it "got older" ... it still takes the same photos it always took. The fact that other cameras take better and better photos now has no affect on the photos an older camera takes -- I don't think a camera 'wears out' in that sense ---

I know my 30D still takes great photos - and it's getting pretty old in 'camera years' ...

Actually, that wasn't my quote it was hollis_f and I quoted him. His point was that while a lot of the discussion here has been 7D vs 7D2 a lot of the upgrade market will be folks moving from older generations of cameras. There was a bit of humor in his statement as well to underline that point .

My 40D is still taking good photos and there is an active thread on POTN of 40D users posting photos. A larger sensor and much better low light performance along with much improved autofocus are some of the reasons I'll be moving to a new 7D2.

Tom_D wrote in post #17165153
Actually, that wasn't my quote it was hollis_f and I quoted him. His point was that while a lot of the discussion here has been 7D vs 7D2 a lot of the upgrade market will be folks moving from older generations of cameras. There was a bit of humor in his statement as well to underline that point .

My 40D is still taking good photos and there is an active thread on POTN of 40D users posting photos. A larger sensor and much better low light performance along with much improved autofocus are some of the reasons I'll be moving to a new 7D2.

It's not a larger sensor (unless it's a fraction of a mm larger); it's still APS-C. More pixels, but the same size sensor.

True, it is still APS-C, just more mp, better low light with high iso, video, Digic 6,....etc, but in most cases, if i shoot at low ISO for example landscapes, then the only thing that is most important is the DR and mp if i need to crop or print larger, so between let's say 40D and 7D2 if i shoot at ISO200 with manual focus lens, how much difference i will see there regardless the mp?

New cameras are for some situations were people wish for more better performances such as better high ISO or faster AF, so if some don't get into those situations i don't see them did a big improvements in upgrading anyway, my 1Ds3 can have better mp shots than my 1DX for landscapes and you all know how old is that 1Ds3 compared to 1DX, but there is no match if we talk about 1DX AF and high ISO compared to 1Ds3, and here is where my 1DX shines in sports mostly and indoor very low light.

monkey44 wrote in post #17165064
Tom D Quote: "All this time their pictures have been getting worse and worse as their camera got older and older"

Why would a camera take a worse picture just because it "got older" ... it still takes the same photos it always took. The fact that other cameras take better and better photos now has no affect on the photos an older camera takes -- I don't think a camera 'wears out' in that sense ---

I know my 30D still takes great photos - and it's getting pretty old in 'camera years' ...

The camera hasn't changed but perceptions of what is good change with each new release. My expectation of what I though acceptable, even great, 10 years ago is very different from what i consider acceptable today. For instance, when I got my Apple Quicktake 100 a bit ago, I thought it was fantastic. I could quickly take a pic, pop it into a document and share. No more sending out to developers, scanning, and the lot. Today that same camera, even though it still has the same capability, is a laughable joke.

[QUOTE=DreDaze;1716514​2]you know you can use their compare tool, and see them side by side...when i do that, i really don't see the .5 stop improvement you do

This is what I was comparing. The left is 70d at 3200, mid - 70d at 6400 and right 7d2 at 6400. I thought the 7d2 at 6400 was in between the other 70d's... maybe my logic is incorrect...

Tom_D wrote in post #17165027
Yep, moving up from a 40D.

Tom_D wrote in post #17165153
Actually, that wasn't my quote it was hollis_f and I quoted him. His point was that while a lot of the discussion here has been 7D vs 7D2 a lot of the upgrade market will be folks moving from older generations of cameras. There was a bit of humor in his statement as well to underline that point .

My 40D is still taking good photos and there is an active thread on POTN of 40D users posting photos. A larger sensor and much better low light performance along with much improved autofocus are some of the reasons I'll be moving to a new 7D2.

This is why I'll be trading in my still-perfectly-functional 30D for the 7D2.

[QUOTE=martinslade;171​65273]

DreDaze wrote in post #17165142
you know you can use their compare tool, and see them side by side...when i do that, i really don't see the .5 stop improvement you do

This is what I was comparing. The left is 70d at 3200, mid - 70d at 6400 and right 7d2 at 6400. I thought the 7d2 at 6400 was in between the other 70d's... maybe my logic is incorrect...

Yep, I see what you mean.

martinslade wrote in post #17165273
This is what I was comparing. The left is 70d at 3200, mid - 70d at 6400 and right 7d2 at 6400. I thought the 7d2 at 6400 was in between the other 70d's... maybe my logic is incorrect...

Are you using the Comparometer? Or their raw file links on the other page? Using the comparometer, I don't see those same results, so your source must have been different than mine?

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17165353
Are you using the Comparometer? Or their raw file links on the other page? Using the comparometer, I don't see those same results, so your source must have been different than mine?

I was using these links:

http://www.imaging-resource.com …LRES/E7D2hSLI06​400NR0.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com …LRES/E70DhSLI06​400NR0.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com …LRES/E70DhSLI03​200NR0.HTM

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17165353
Are you using the Comparometer? Or their raw file links on the other page? Using the comparometer, I don't see those same results, so your source must have been different than mine?

All the Comparometer seems to do is show the two JPEG images side by side. But because it's the JPEG images they're showing, you have to account for (if you're comparing the 7D against the 7D2) five years worth of postprocessing difference.

When I do that with the ISO 12800 shot, it appears the 7D2 shot is considerably cleaner, but the detail retention isn't quite as good despite the slightly higher resolution. That tells me that luminance NR is higher in the 7D2 shot.


You really need to postprocess the raw files using the same (non-Canon) program in order to properly compare the two sensors. Imaging-resources would have to reprocess every older image whenever a new version of the image processing software was released that supports cameras that the older releases do not. That is clearly too much of a burden.

I can tell you exactly what Canon is doing on the 7D2 with the in-camera JPG generation, based on looking at the supposed "disabled NR" setting for the 7D2 vs the 70D at ISO 6400. Canon has upped, yet again, the NR sliders, for all 4 of the NR settings, and in the case of "Disabled", they still have the chroma slider set to a very aggressive value. This is why there is no discernible color noise in that 7D2 example.

This is why I want 70D and 7D2 raw files for each of the NR settings for each ISO level. Canon has continually increased the NR values for all the newest offerings from the 70D onwards from what the older cameras had. I don't think you can use the JPGs to point out that the 7D2 is better than the 70D, I fully suspect once we have back to back raw comparisons, with NR sliders taken all the way down (or use LR/ACR, etc), we will see the true story of how one compares to the other.

I want to generate a much larger graph of what I did here back with the 7D and 5D2. If people would like to provide me the values for the 6D and 70D now for these ISO ranges and NR settings (it takes some time to do the analysis), I will add them to my spreadsheet, and we can do the same for the 7D2.

Here you go these are the ones from my ISO noise trade on the 6D.

BTW I reckoned ISO 3200 on the 6D was about the same as ISO 800 on the 7D for the default DPP noise settings in each case. This was based on the pixel RMS variation of a mid grey test patch.

Cool, I will compile inputs and try to find time in between projects to enter all into a combined sheet.

What are the different graphs for, differentiated by 100%, 50%, etc? I assume the 100% is the one I would match to my inputs.

So, I look at the raw images from the 7DII, and I look at what I assume are 100% crops, and there is indeed noise. More noise than the FF cameras it is being compared to. Then I think about whether this noise would be noticeable if the image were displayed at anything close to a normal size. I think not. Then I think about whether this noise would be noticeable in a print. The answer is only if you printed very large and stood very close to the print, so close that you could only see a very small area of the image. Then I wonder why some people purchase cameras to begin with.

This camera should be a great tool for wildlife and action, and the IQ of the images, when viewed as images, not pixels, will be excellent.

I don't think anyone is really comparing the 7D2 to FF yet. We are really just discussing how far or close it is to the 7D and 70D. From analysis on the internet from 5 different sources using raw and jpg, it appears that the 7D2 is about 2/3 better than the 7D (and the noise characteristics themselves are much better) and it is very close to the 70D.

It is safe to assume at this point, we aren't going to be surprised by the 7D2 when it hits the shelves, where mysteriously, it is now 1 or more stops better than the 7D or more than 1/3 stops better than the 70D. I personally would loved to have seen just a bit more out of it, but I can live with cleaner noise than the 7D, with better ISO performance, and all the 1D AF goodness.

IMO the 7D2 is the love child of the 1D4 and his 70D mistress...