7D mk II image quality RAW worse than 7D for now

h14nha wrote in post #17232933
But isn't that the premise of this whole thread, what can the 7D2 IQ offer, that the 7Dc can't.

As has been stated very clearly already on this page, 200-400 F4's, 600 F4's are not what people who the 7D2 is targeted at, will be using on them. Those fortunate souls will be rocking 1Dx's. That coupled with superlative PP skills, puts the quality of those images far and away from what the average birder will be able to wring from the 7D2............

Yes, but whether it matters to the "average birder" whoever that might be, it proves the ability of the camera to produce those images. If it can't then it doesn't matter to the skilled pros either.

And, the "average birder' might become a better than average birder someday, and a better than average PP too, eventually Just because it's of less use now, doesn't mean it won't be later.

These discussion mostly revolve around technical issues that fly past me anyway -- as I have no background, and less understanding of the data package ... but won't stop me from enjoying the AF performance, and other features -- IQ differences only mean something if one chooses to print huge photos or posters ... or, wants to examine a print with a magnifying glass from an inch away ...

Personally, I enjoy images from a distance of "feet" not "inches" and in a frame on the wall, not on a desk while acting like a detective. Course, each of us has our own production goals too. Not all revolve around "how clear is this at xxx distance" ...

I've seen some pretty stunning images come out of a 30D as well ... so it's all about the final product in many cases, and not how much we can pick a specific image, or a specific camera or lens apart bit x bit.

snapperz wrote in post #17232666
Acceptable maybe but nothing ground-breaking. Certainly nowhere near a 1DX and significantly inferior to a 1DIV at a pixel level from what I've seen. At 100% it looks muddy and noisy at 1600ISO+ IMO. In prints I'm sure it will look great but not necessarily at larger sizes than the 1DIV can print for example.
I'm considering getting one but it will need to beat the 1DIV and 5DIII in IQ when FL limited at moderately high ISO to interest me and I'm not confident about this yet.

These are 100% crops of ISO 6400 sample RAW images from Imaging Resource, converted using DPP 3.14.41, no NR, Standard, 3 sharpening for both, 1D4 on the left, 7D2 on the right. The first leaves the native resolution untouched, the second drops the size of the 7D2 to more-or-less match the 1D4 size. Viewers can decide for themselves how well the two compare.

hmm any one who suggest s the 7 D mk2 comprehensively matches the 1 D IV for IQ and ISO noise levels ( as some have sort of suggested ) probably needs to urgently visit an optometrist - sad to say - as others with far more experience and knowledge than me have already commented it looks like canon may have hit the wall in 1.6 sensor development game !!!!

cheers

ps and yes I thought this thread was about probable 7 D mk 2 image quality ( which is not really looking to be a quantum leap forward at all past the 7 D & 70 D ) and not the highly anticipated super new 65 point af and the other bells and whistles canon have cleverly added to this camera to lift its game and distract away from the IQ and ISO performance

monkey44 wrote in post #17232997
Yes, but whether it matters to the "average birder" whoever that might be, it proves the ability of the camera to produce those images. If it can't then it doesn't matter to the skilled pros either.

And, the "average birder' might become a better than average birder someday, and a better than average PP too, eventually Just because it's of less use now, doesn't mean it won't be later.

These discussion mostly revolve around technical issues that fly past me anyway -- as I have no background, and less understanding of the data package ... but won't stop me from enjoying the AF performance, and other features -- IQ differences only mean something if one chooses to print huge photos or posters ... or, wants to examine a print with a magnifying glass from an inch away ...

Personally, I enjoy images from a distance of "feet" not "inches" and in a frame on the wall, not on a desk while acting like a detective. Course, each of us has our own production goals too. Not all revolve around "how clear is this at xxx distance" ...

I've seen some pretty stunning images come out of a 30D as well ... so it's all about the final product in many cases, and not how much we can pick a specific image, or a specific camera or lens apart bit x bit.

I don't disagree with anything you posted, I have a 7D and rarely go over ISO 800 when birding. I'm on record on here stating that an in focus shot obviously trumps an out of focus one, so the new AF will be an awesome addition to the 7D2.
But this thread is about the ultimate IQ. Nothing more. By linking to birders who are at the top of their game using the best glass Canon has to offer, seems to be giving birders false hope.
For birding, focal length is king. Getting as close as possible to eliminate cropping will enable just about any DSLR to produce a great image........ That said, that new AF system. Mmmmmmm.

snapperz wrote in post #17232666
Acceptable maybe but nothing ground-breaking. Certainly nowhere near a 1DX and significantly inferior to a 1DIV at a pixel level from what I've seen. At 100% it looks muddy and noisy at 1600ISO+ IMO. In prints I'm sure it will look great but not necessarily at larger sizes than the 1DIV can print for example.
I'm considering getting one but it will need to beat the 1DIV and 5DIII in IQ when FL limited at moderately high ISO to interest me and I'm not confident about this yet.

I can put your mind at ease then, the 7D2 will not beat the 1D4 and 5D3 in IQ, not in any kind of condition I could possibly think of other than macro maybe. Will it be close, with some fraction of a full stop? When compared to the 1D4, sure, with the 5D3, it will take a bit more than what the 7D2 will muster up.

Just thought I would put my pennies worth in as 2 weeks ago I was out shooting with a UK Canon Ambassador who has been using a 7Dmk2 for about 4 weeks or so testing it for Canon and making a couple of adverts for it. The day we was out was really really wet and bloody cold, so I can say the weather sealing was very good.. I did get to play with it for a while and it seemed a very nice little camera, it needed a grip but then im used to one so that might not be for every one. I really liked the little switch on the joystick that changed the AF points I thought that would be nice on my 1DX.

What he did say is that he wouldn't go over ISO1600 on this camera, you can of course but he said he didn't like the amount of noise that he saw, he was shooting in both jpeg and RAW and processing the RAW in DPP, again he said once the camera is out then somebody will make better noise software for it and you could probably go higher but it was to early to tell. As for a compare to a 1D4 again when I asked about a back up camera he said he would still go for a 1D4 over the 7d2 but just and really its down to user choice as theres not much in it with noise quality, the noise on a 1D4 has a different type of pattern to it than the 7d2 but in real terms they kind of looked the same upto 1600 then the 1d4 wins after that. Again from what he could tell the 5D3 is only marginally better in noise up to 1600 which in truth 99% of will never notice the difference. The 7D2 wins in the burst rate over the 5D3 as the buffer does not slow down nearly as much but again not as good as the 1D4.
Theres not much point in trying to compare a 7D2 to a 1DX, the 1DX still is the king at the moment in the Canon line up. But of course its a £4k camera against a £1600 camera so what would you expect! After seeing the images he had taken that day when we were out in terrible conditions on his laptop I would say its a great little camera that 7Dmk1 owners if they upgraded would not be disappointed if they did. I will defiantly be picking one up soon as they come out as a back up camera for my wildlife photos, I really like my 5D3 but I find its just not quick enough for action shots after using a 1DX so I will stick to using it for weddings and portraits to which its a great camera for. This is really I would say after my 15 mins of shooting with it a mini 1DX, I also found I had missed having a crop sensor...

He did mention that only around 300ish units will be available in the first shipment from Canon (in the UK) and at £1600 they are going to sell out very quickly, Canon just cant make enough of them at the moment to meet demand, so if you want one then you best place your order quickly as the next batch wont be till after xmas...

There are already good noise software packages out there, I am surprised somebody working with images all day would say that we should wait for better nr software. I am very close to being able to remove a stop off noise without any perceptible loss of detail. Dpp is the bottom of the barrel for noise reduction when compared to other packages. That is the next software enhancement canon should work on, in camera and dpp.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17233640
There are already good noise software packages out there, I am surprised somebody working with images all day would say that we should wait for better nr software. I am very close to being able to remove a stop off noise without any perceptible loss of detail. Dpp is the bottom of the barrel for noise reduction when compared to other packages. That is the next software enhancement canon should work on, in camera and dpp.

of course there is and of course you can use it on a 7dmk2 image, what he was getting at is once the camera is out and Adobe has updated RAW in LR or whatever you use it will do a better job of removing whatever noise is in the image than DPP, the jpegs from in-camera were as far as I could see very nice and it did a good job with images around the 800 to 1600 range!

gabebalazs wrote in post #17231325
Some of those comments really make me scratch my head...

One commenter says that since the little vinegar bottle looks a tiny bit rotated in the 7D and 7DII test scenes, the whole test is invalid and the 7D and 7DII are unfairly represented.
He goes on to suggest that basically the test was rigged and the 7D and 7DII would do worse if they had been tested like the other modern APS-C

Crazy.

Then someone adds that that's why he doesn't trust these test. OK, how else would we compare cameras??? Comparing multiple people's various shots of completely different scenes under different lights, etc? Really?

Yeah all the newer aps-c look about the same really.

gabebalazs wrote in post #17231097
"Both crop bodies and FF bodies show the red detail until we get to the 70D and 7DmkII both of which share the same senor."
I'd rephrase it like "... until we get to the 70D, 7DII, D7100, Canon T5, Nikon D5300, and the list goes on."
Allen, have you checked other recent camera bodies? I'm asking because the Nikon D5300 (Sony sensor) shows the same low contrast muddyness on the red cloth.

Also, have you checked them only in DPP or Adobe Camera Raw as well? Because I used ACR to check about 10 bodies and again, old ones render the cloth contrasty, while the new ones render them differently, no matter what manufacturer. If you're only using DPP, you can't see Nikon RAW files, but I can in ACR, and again the cloth is muddy, low contrast when you look at new camera bodies in ACR.

If you insist that it's a problem with the sensor, I insist it's a problem with DPP.

I think one easy way to check the condition of the red cloth is to go to IR's Comparometer and select old cameras and compare them to new ones. It's only jpeg, but even from jpegs its evident that the cloth has lost a lot of leaf patter contrast it once used to have. And all manufacturers show the same phenomenon. So even though sensors have advance significantly in the last 7-8 years, and we can see that by looking at the rest of the test photo, the red cloth has deteriorated over time. Everything else in the test scene becomes better looking with the new sensors, including the red threads hanging on the wall, except the red cloth? I find that very odd.

Just for kicks, compare a Nikon D300 to a D3300. Or a Canon XTi to an EOS M. Or a Sony A380 to an A5100. Basically anything old to anything new. You'll see the same thing happening, regardless of sensor or manufacturer.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/CO​MPS01.HTM

I don't shoot Nikon and if they look like the later Canon's and while others say Canon looks better than Nikon color balance wise, I think we MAY have a problem. As I said In my earlier post the 6D samples were shot about 9 months before the 70D and the detail is CLEARLY there. Suddenly 9 months later the red fabric detail is all but lost. This should convince you that the issue in not in the fabric but the way the red color detail in the fabric is handled. Since the detail is there with the 5DmkIII and the 7D and the 6D ALL using different sensors but not in the same sensored 70D, 7DmkII. it must be due to the sensor or the software controlling the sensor and NOT DPP. If it were DPP it would render them all the same which it obviously does not.

patrol50 wrote in post #17233043
hmm any one who suggest s the 7 D mk2 comprehensively matches the 1 D IV for IQ and ISO noise levels ( as some have sort of suggested ) probably needs to urgently visit an optometrist - sad to say - as others with far more experience and knowledge than me have already commented it looks like canon may have hit the wall in 1.6 sensor development game !!!!

cheers

ps and yes I thought this thread was about probable 7 D mk 2 image quality ( which is not really looking to be a quantum leap forward at all past the 7 D & 70 D ) and not the highly anticipated super new 65 point af and the other bells and whistles canon have cleverly added to this camera to lift its game and distract away from the IQ and ISO performance

There is no doubt that the 1DIV still has better IQ at the pixel level, but keep in mind thought that the above IR samples were not focal length limited scenarios. If they used the same lens for both the 1DIV and 7DII (IR usually uses the Sigma 70mm 2.8 macro lens for their tests), they shot them from different distances, due to the 1.3x vs 1.6x crop factor in order to maintain the same framing.

If you shoot the same test from the exact same spot with both cameras (still the same lens for both), obviously you'll end up with a smaller image of your subject in the 1DIV shot, since it's only 1.3x. The 7DII will put more pixels on the subject since it's 1.6x.

So in order to give birders and sports photographers a sort of "better-for-them" test result (since most of the time they're focal length limited), the different sized subjects in the 2 shots must be equalized in size too (along with the 16mp vs 20mp picture size), in order to compare actual noise and detail differences between the two in these focal length limited situations. Basically you'll have to enlarge the 1DIV subject to match the physical dimension of the same subject in the 7DII (and that is in addition to equalizing the size of the 16mp vs 20mp images.)

So the 1DIV subject (a bird or athlete, or something in this IR test scene) will need enlargement to match the 1.6x 7DII subject size, and this also means the noise will be increased a bit.

This is very similar to this classic test (PDF) below, where they compared the 7D to 1DIII in focal length limited bird photography situation:

http://iwishicouldfly.​com …0vs%201D%20Mark​%20III.pdf

AllenF wrote in post #17233971
I don't shoot Nikon and if they look like the later Canon's and while others say Canon looks better than Nikon color balance wise, I think we MAY have a problem. As I said In my earlier post the 6D samples were shot about 9 months before the 70D and the detail is CLEARLY there. Suddenly 9 months later the red fabric detail is all but lost. This should convince you that the issue in not in the fabric but the way the red color detail in the fabric is handled. Since the detail is there with the 5DmkIII and the 7D and the 6D ALL using different sensors but not in the same sensored 70D, 7DmkII. it must be due to the sensor or the software controlling the sensor and NOT DPP. If it were DPP it would render them all the same which it obviously does not.

Then how do you explain that detail is the same as other cameras in anything else red? Such as the red threads on the wall, the crayons, etc.

As well as the fact that nobody else here seems to see what you're seeing in anywhere else in the image, and in any other display software, but only in DPP.

So we know that only DPP displays the red cloth badly, but nothing else red in the image suffers, and only in more recent cameras. ACR dispays the red cloth similarly between most new cameras, Nikon or Canon (including 7DII, 70D), or Pentax, while old Cameras, doesn't matter what brand, display the red cloth in a different way, more contrasty, in ACR.

I'm sorry Allen, but I don't see where we're getting here, out of a bunch of different scenarios, only one combination seems bad while others show no problem.

2n10 wrote in post #17231143
DPReview has their comparator up with the 7D2 and it does not show the muddying of reds as on IR. So we either have a DPP issue or a fading of the cloth.

Maybe there is a nice smear on the back glass of the lens used causing the issue.

Allen your dogged determination is admirable but it starting to come across as a means to verify to yourself that this camera is not for you. No one is beating anyone down for their choices just stating that it a choice that they do not make.

One more time. The DP Review test scene does offer the challenging red fabric detail so it is less able to demonstrate this issue. Imagine a beautiful woman in a dress made from the red fabric. Everything would be properly rendered until we got to the detail in the dress. No matter what you try to do in PP you will not get it right. Will the designer of the dress be wanting your image? Will the beautiful woman be happy too? So, am I pixel peeping here? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding NO!!!

This is not about me and my motives but an examination of IQ issues CLEARLY seen in two bodies using the same sensor. As far as IQ detail the 7D, is equal to and in the case of the red fabric better than the 70D and the 7DmkII at ISO 100 RAW FOR NOW.

Interestingly the noise is slightly reduced in the 7DmkII but I see it as a trade off. Lower noise along with reduced detail. This tells me, like others here have also noticed, that Canon's trend appears to be that they FOR NOW are tapped out performance wise with 1.6 crop sensors. So it really comes down to "How badly do I NEED/WANT the 7DmkII's features", because the IQ is equal to or less than the 7D. Also factor in am I OK with paying $1800 for those feature improvements over the 7D. For me I have not hit a wall using the 7D, feature wise, except in video focusing. I have however hit a wall with higher ISO issues, both involving detail reduction and noise increase. For me, is the more robust Video/live view focusing worth $1800? No! Could that $1800 be put to better use by going in a different direction? IMO, ABSOLUTELY!!!

I see a 5DmkIII and a 24-105L in my very near future. I already have, for me, the perfect Airshow/ occasional wildlife combo in the 7D & 100-400L.

What MY priorities are is getting even more detail at all ISO's and the 5DmkIII does this in spades. As a secondary consideration is the wonderful portability of the 5DmkIII & 24-105L IS combo. If I were limited to having only one lens and body this would be the one. I can think of many times where this has come up. Anyone been to Disneyland/World with family? I think you get my point.

gabebalazs wrote in post #17234006
Then how do you explain that detail is the same as other cameras in anything else red? Such as the red threads on the wall, the crayons, etc.

As well as the fact that nobody else here seems to see what you're seeing in anywhere else in the image, and in any other display software, but only in DPP.

So we know that only DPP displays the red cloth badly, but nothing else red in the image suffers, and only in more recent cameras. ACR dispays the red cloth similarly between most new cameras, Nikon or Canon (including 7DII, 70D), or Pentax, while old Cameras, doesn't matter what brand, display the red cloth in a different way, more contrasty, in ACR.

I'm sorry Allen, but I don't see where we're getting here, out of a bunch of different scenarios, only one combination seems bad while others show no problem.

I cannot speak to other PP software as I do not have the ability to test it for myself. I also have not read or I missed it that others are not seeing this in other PP software just you. Since your position that the red thread is the same, IMO I see in the red thread the same over-saturation though not as obviously as the red fabric. If you were to sample the color of the red fabric and the red tread to see what the color levels are this might show you what I mean. Compare the 5DmkIII with the 7D and the 70D. I think though, the the subtle changes in light would make this all but impossible to reach a conclusion.

I think this is important and I get that it is not so much for you. I doubt without better data I will be able to change all minds, and really this is not my desired out come and IMO it should not be yours. I respect all input here that is on topic. You and I have reached differing conclusions. I am good with leaving it at that. Others here do see what I am talking about. They agree that once the 7DmkII comes out they will need to compare further. They remember the BLACK DOT highlight issue and it's rather quick resolution once it became common knowledge. Do you remember it too?

As the thread title says FOR NOW

I chose that wording very carefully. I know that when things show up flawed that software/firmware has a huge ability to fix them. Usually this takes a big push from those here on this forum to get Canon to move in our, and really their, favor. We have a measure of influence here. I think it may be time to use that influence again. In a matter of weeks we will have even more samples to see if the 7DmkII is as wacked in this area as the 70D currently is. I think it will be messed up but I can wait to be sure.

If Canon thinks that this issue is the new direction they want to go in, and we need to go along with them in this new look for red, I am out. At least my 7D is not doing it and the 5DmkIII and the 6D don't do it either. I DEMAND as much neutrality as I can get. I think I have it now. I also know that I won't get it in a 70D and quit possibly in the 7DmkII. Sadly as of today these two latter bodies are non starters for me. Had I not found this out I might have moved to the 7DmkII. That has changed FOR NOW.

I would like to thank Imaging Resource for their wonderful scene selection and for posting all of these samples in both JPEG and RAW. Without their very good choices and work this quit possibly would not have ever been noticed. To me they are the best FOR NOW when it comes to comparing one body to another. PRICELESS.