7D mk II image quality RAW worse than 7D for now

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17231316
AllenF, there is nothing left to talk about regarding your original assessment. You have ONE data point at this point to argue your point. That cannot be used to drive any conclusion. I don't see the same issues with the DPReview comparison tool. We know that IR has changed their scene a few times now. Whose to say that the cloth is even the same one? Whose to say the color is the same for the lights?

If you had multiple sources of back to back samples showing the same thing, then you can get a bit more indignant about where this thread is headed, but as it stands right now, you have no ammo. You have the scent of gunpowder, but no discovered ammo.

So either this thread continues aimlessly discussing other things about the 7D and 7D2, like the other threads, or you ask the mods to close it, or you wait until copies makes it into the hands of others within the next week to two weeks, then try to re-rail this thread.

As I have said above the red samples offered in the DP Review scene are not as detailed as the red sample in the IR red fabric. I bet IR could never have imagined how their fabric selection would become so much discussed.

All of your speculation questions can be easily resolved by your Emailing IR. They answered mine I bet they will do so for you, or for that matter anyone else here, as well.

So far those who have taken the time to look at the ISO 100 RAW samples and processed them in DPP using my levels have been clearly able to see what I am seeing. For this I am happy. It reaffirms that I did it right. Some have done other higher ISO samples and used different levels settings in DPP and it still clearly showed up. This also makes me happy.

Now are there any out there, other than gabebalazs, who have the ability to process the 5dmkIII, 7D, 70D,and 7DmkII raw ISO 100 samples( you can forego doing Nikons as I am not intrested in that brand for now) to confirm what Gabebalazs is saying that it does not show up in the 70d, 7DmkII so that they are just as detailed as the 5DmkIII and the 7D?

I would greatly appreciate your work. I think it would take about 15-20 mins. tops to do this.

AllenF wrote in post #17234018
One more time. The DP Review test scene does offer the challenging red fabric detail so it is less able to demonstrate this issue. Imagine a beautiful woman in a dress made from the red fabric. Everything would be properly rendered until we got to the detail in the dress. No matter what you try to do in PP you will not get it right. Will the designer of the dress be wanting your image? Will the beautiful woman be happy too? So, am I pixel peeping here? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding NO!!!

This is not about me and my motives but an examination of IQ issues CLEARLY seen in two bodies using the same sensor. As far as IQ detail the 7D, is equal to and in the case of the red fabric better than the 70D and the 7DmkII at ISO 100 RAW FOR NOW.

Interestingly the noise is slightly reduced in the 7DmkII but I see it as a trade off. Lower noise along with reduced detail. This tells me, like others here have also noticed, that Canon's trend appears to be that they FOR NOW are tapped out performance wise with 1.6 crop sensors. So it really comes down to "How badly do I NEED/WANT the 7DmkII's features", because the IQ is equal to or less than the 7D. Also factor in am I OK with paying $1800 for those feature improvements over the 7D. For me I have not hit a wall using the 7D, feature wise, except in video focusing. I have however hit a wall with higher ISO issues, both involving detail reduction and noise increase. For me, is the more robust Video/live view focusing worth $1800? No! Could that $1800 be put to better use by going in a different direction? IMO, ABSOLUTELY!!!

I see a 5DmkIII and a 24-105L in my very near future. I already have, for me, the perfect Airshow/ occasional wildlife combo in the 7D & 100-400L.

What MY priorities are is getting even more detail at all ISO's and the 5DmkIII does this in spades. As a secondary consideration is the wonderful portability of the 5DmkIII & 24-105L IS combo. If I were limited to having only one lens and body this would be the one. I can think of many times where this has come up. Anyone been to Disneyland/World with family? I think you get my point.

How do you know that for that certain? I don't use DPP for my RAW editing. Do you use or have you tried ACR, or just DPP only?

Allen, I sort of understand what you're trying to explain here, but please don't generalize, and don't speak for my (or anyone else's) editing skills, done in a completely different RAW editing software. Like I said I don't use DPP. I had 3 7Ds (along with 10 other Canon bodies over the years), currently own a 70D and there is absolutely no problem with the 70D's reds whatsoever, RAW or Jpeg.
Before I sold my 7D, I did a bunch of tests scenes to compare the 7D and 70D (similar scenes to IR's), and found absolutely no problem, and I did have patterned red objects in the scene. Maybe I had a "defective" 70D and it did not exhibit the "problem"

Like I said, I have no problem with the red cloth in ACR. The red cloth has faded over the years. Again, check a bunch of different manufacturers' cameras (I've checked about 10 of them), and you'll see the pattern (no pun intended). Check them in ACR, check them in IR's comparometer, Lightroom, etc. and you'll find no difference. The only difference is when you compare modern bodies to older ones tested on IR, the older the body generally the stronger the red leaf pattern.

AllenF wrote in post #17234097
As I have said above the red samples offered in the DP Review scene are not as detailed as the red sample in the IR red fabric. I bet IR could never have imagined how their fabric selection would become so much discussed.

All of your speculation questions can be easily resolved by your Emailing IR. They answered mine I bet they will do so for you, or for that matter anyone else here, as well.

So far those who have taken the time to look at the ISO 100 RAW samples and processed them in DPP using my levels have been clearly able to see what I am seeing. For this I am happy. It reaffirms that I did it right. Some have done other higher ISO samples and used different levels settings in DPP and it still clearly showed up. This also makes me happy.

Now are there any out there, other than gabebalazs, who have the ability to process the 5dmkIII, 7D, 70D,and 7DmkII raw ISO 100 samples( you can forego doing Nikons as I am not intrested in that brand for now) to confirm what Gabebalazs is saying that it does not show up in the 70d, 7DmkII so that they are just as detailed as the 5DmkIII and the 7D?

I would greatly appreciate your work. I think it would take about 15-20 mins. tops to do this.

Allen, the fundamental problem here is that you see something in DPP (which apparently doesn't exist in other formats or test scenes), then you go ahead and make the bold conclusion that the 70D and 7DII sensors are wacked, the old 7D has at least as good or better IQ, etc., while actual users who have the 7D and 70D don't see this problem, especially if they use ACR or basically any other RAW processor than DPP.

I can go so far as to believe you that there may be a problem with how DPP renders 70D and 7DII reds on that cloth, while everything else renders it just fine. BUT again, don't compare the 7D cloth to the 7DII cloth since it has faded over the 5 years, proven by checking all recent cameras, which show the pattern faded. The difference compared to old cameras is significant.

And it would be difficult to convince me that a D300 Nikon or a Canon 40D has better IQ than a D810 or a 6D just because the former bodies display the red cloth, and only red cloth, a lot more contrasty than the latter bodies.

On a separate note, I also find it a good idea to have others check this issue in different RAW converters.

As I have said before I currently have no other software to deal with the 70D, 7DmkII or other branded cameras.
I am not criticizing your PP skills just looking to see if others doing it the way I did but using other PP software are seeing what you are seeing.
Sorry if this upsets you but I like to get others involved too.This makes for a more balanced and interesting discussion, don't you think?

For now I use lightroom or Dxo. I may once again compare DPP with them just to be sure.

Gabe:
Actually the 6D renders the detail like the 5DmkIII and the 7D . It is when 9 months later in the 70D that the red fabric goes wacky. So for 4+ years the red fabric is fine and suddenly 9 months later it suddenly goes wacky.
So did IR take their sample board and put it in the window exposing it to direct sunlight and miraculously only the red fabric was impacted? We all know that black is also VERY susceptible to fading and even the dark green but nothing has happened here. Only the red channel.
Interesting don't you think? Could it be caused by something else. You say absolutely not because I own one trust me. I say thank you for your observations but I hope you won't mind if I wait for more input.

Since you have the 70D and have compared it to the 7D I have to give you a leg up on me there. I also think that unless you were looking for this issue or are a more detailed type of an individual( not that you are not) you might never see it. I know once I make my mind up that X is better to Y IMO then I hardly ever look back. IMO this is is put to bed brand X is better! Now with confidence lets get out there and have some fun taking some pic's.

However, If at a later date I find out that there is a situation that has developed with X this will give me pause to re-examine once more and armed with this new info I must make an INFORMED decision.

Your mind is made up. Good for you. You swapped the 7D for the 70D as it makes for a better fit for your type of photography. Again good for you. You must do what makes sense for you.

I see it, FOR NOW, that the 70D is not for me especially for Airshows and action. I also see the 70D is not for me due to the mentioned red channel over-saturation. You say it is not there, I see otherwise. Perhaps it is time to find another thread. I am willing to wait for the 7DmkII production model and the IR samples. I also may spend some money on the latest updates to my PP software. But for now I will wait to see if others here are willing to do this other PP software comparison for us here and let us know if what they see is what you reported here as seeing. Will that satisfy you? It does me.

AllenF wrote in post #17234130
As I have said before I currently have no other software to deal with the 70D, 7DmkII or other branded cameras.
I am not criticizing your PP skills just looking to see if others doing it the way I did but using other PP software are seeing what you are seeing.
Sorry if this upsets you but I like to get others involved too.This makes for a more balanced and interesting discussion, don't you think?

For now I use lightroom or Dxo. I may once again compare DPP with them just to be sure.

I'm not sure if I understand you, perhaps you've misread my post above
I did say that it IS a good idea to have others involved too. So no upset here, on the contrary

AllenF wrote in post #17234018
One more time. The DP Review test scene does offer the challenging red fabric detail so it is less able to demonstrate this issue. Imagine a beautiful woman in a dress made from the red fabric. Everything would be properly rendered until we got to the detail in the dress. No matter what you try to do in PP you will not get it right. Will the designer of the dress be wanting your image? Will the beautiful woman be happy too? So, am I pixel peeping here? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding NO!!!

This is not about me and my motives but an examination of IQ issues CLEARLY seen in two bodies using the same sensor. As far as IQ detail the 7D, is equal to and in the case of the red fabric better than the 70D and the 7DmkII at ISO 100 RAW FOR NOW.

Interestingly the noise is slightly reduced in the 7DmkII but I see it as a trade off. Lower noise along with reduced detail. This tells me, like others here have also noticed, that Canon's trend appears to be that they FOR NOW are tapped out performance wise with 1.6 crop sensors. So it really comes down to "How badly do I NEED/WANT the 7DmkII's features", because the IQ is equal to or less than the 7D. Also factor in am I OK with paying $1800 for those feature improvements over the 7D. For me I have not hit a wall using the 7D, feature wise, except in video focusing. I have however hit a wall with higher ISO issues, both involving detail reduction and noise increase. For me, is the more robust Video/live view focusing worth $1800? No! Could that $1800 be put to better use by going in a different direction? IMO, ABSOLUTELY!!!

I see a 5DmkIII and a 24-105L in my very near future. I already have, for me, the perfect Airshow/ occasional wildlife combo in the 7D & 100-400L.

What MY priorities are is getting even more detail at all ISO's and the 5DmkIII does this in spades. As a secondary consideration is the wonderful portability of the 5DmkIII & 24-105L IS combo. If I were limited to having only one lens and body this would be the one. I can think of many times where this has come up. Anyone been to Disneyland/World with family? I think you get my point.

ONE MORE TIME. If DPP was misinterpreting reds then all reds would look washed out. ONLY the swatches are washed out. This is what everyone is trying to point out to you, not that you are not seeing what you see.

AllenF wrote in post #17234167
I see it, FOR NOW, that the 70D is not for me especially for Airshows and action. I also see the 70D is not for me due to the mentioned red channel over-saturation. You say it is not there, I see otherwise. Perhaps it is time to find another thread. I am willing to wait for the 7DmkII production model and the IR samples. I also may spend some money on the latest updates to my PP software. But for now I will wait to see if others here are willing to do this other PP software comparison for us here and let us know if what they see is what you reported here as seeing. Will that satisfy you? It does me.

I don't understand why you are so fixate on IR sample as if you know that IR samples are the only unflawed one? I think I would rather wait and see more than just a few RAW samples from acknowledged web publications. I can understand that you want to have the thread you started not so diluted. But if you are to say we should accept what you said, and stay strictly by the topic then that mean we shouldn't anything that's better about 7D2 RAW IQ because it would be contrary to the topic. In fact, I think people who think other people shouldn't be think differently from you are should just stay w/ blogging. Make your own blog about it, and you can just delete all the comment that is contrary to what you say.

Unsubscribing, there is nothing left to discuss... in a few days we will have all kinds of reviews, more than enough to digest for any issues or not.

AllenF-
I decided to take one more look at the red cloth in the IR samples. Looking at 200% view, what I found was that some of the cloth detail looks worse in the 7D2 samples compared to the 6D, and some looks virtually the same. That seems to indicate that it's something extrinsic to the cameras that's causing the issue. Here's a comparison, 7D2 on the top and 6D on the bottom, at 200% view in Photoshop. These were from the IR RAW ISO 200 NR0 files for both, processed through DPP with default sharpening for both using USM. Once in Photoshop, I applied a levels adjustment to both crops to bring out the detail.

2n10 wrote in post #17234461
ONE MORE TIME. If DPP was misinterpreting reds then all reds would look washed out. ONLY the swatches are washed out. This is what everyone is trying to point out to you, not that you are not seeing what you see.

OK, I see your point. Here is where I may be able to help. There are two red fabric swatches the one on top also has a pattern but overall the fabric is a darker red and more or less is fine not exactly the same as is rendered by the 5DmkIII,6D, 7D but close enough for our discussion. The lower fabric and the one of concern is more vibrant. In the red channel is is just that much brighter to cause the red channel to be over driven which is causing the loss of detail and the over-saturated appearance. So if you did not have this detail pattern in an vibrant red cloth or sample then you will not have the intensity levels to over drive the red channel and all would appear to be fine. It just so happened that this red fabric sample pushes the red channel info over the top and, well, here we are.

The DP Review scene lacks any red items with something like the darker leaf pattern so it renders reds, which are basically all solid red, fine. The other red items in the IR scene are also basically solid red and they are rendered fine as well. It is this patterned red detail that exposes easily that there is something less than ideal going on.

Look I wish I could get a re-shoot of this IR scene today with a 5DmkIII. I think this would provide the answer. I have asked for one. We will see if IR responds. I have a hunch they are in Southern California as am I. I would be willing to bring my 7D down to shoot it. I have not offered this because I am not sure they are in So.Cal.
As I said I am willing to wait for the later image samples to show up. There is no doubt something is going on with the red fabric rendering in the 70D and the 7DmkII pre-production images. If anyone thinks otherwise I am fine with that.

Others have benefited from this observation and even are willing to wait as I am. What more could I ask for?

I actually was hoping for someone to show me where my PP was wrong. Quite the opposite. It has been shown to be repeatable and correct.This is good for me and my observations.

I am using a calibrated monitor and in fact I own my own Home Theater Business. I love good and accurate images. I am also a trained video display calibrator. I was trained to calibrate displays by the Imaging Science Foundation or ISF. I have been doing calibrations for 14 years now.

As such, I know what to look for within images that should not be there or that is missing. In some ways it is a curse as I find improperly adjusted displays to be very annoying. It is the same way with music for me. I tend to really get on my wife's nerves from time to time. But I like to think that this is what one of the jobs of a husband is. Don't you?

AllenF wrote in post #17234687
OK, I see your point. Here is where I may be able to help. There are two red fabric swatches the one on top also has a pattern but overall the fabric is a darker red and more or less is fine not exactly the same as is rendered by the 5DmkIII,6D, 7D but close enough for our discussion. The lower fabric and the one of concern is more vibrant. In the red channel is is just that much brighter to cause the red channel to be over driven which is causing the loss of detail and the over-saturated appearance. So if you did not have this detail pattern in an vibrant red cloth or sample then you will not have the intensity levels to over drive the red channel and all would appear to be fine. It just so happened that this red fabric sample pushes the red channel info over the top and, well, here we are.

The DP Review scene lacks any red items with something like the darker leaf pattern so it renders reds, which are basically all solid red, fine. The other red items in the IR scene are also basically solid red and they are rendered fine as well. It is this patterned red detail that exposes easily that there is something less than ideal going on.

Look I wish I could get a re-shoot of this IR scene today with a 5DmkIII. I think this would provide the answer. I have asked for one. We will see if IR responds. I have a hunch they are in Southern California as am I. I would be willing to bring my 7D down to shoot it. I have not offered this because I am not sure they are in So.Cal.
As I said I am willing to wait for the later image samples to show up. There is no doubt something is going on with the red fabric rendering in the 70D and the 7DmkII pre-production images. If anyone thinks otherwise I am fine with that.

Others have benefited from this observation and even are willing to wait as I am. What more could I ask for?

I actually was hoping for someone to show me where my PP was wrong. Quite the opposite. It has been shown to be repeatable and correct.This is good for me and my observations.

I am using a calibrated monitor and in fact I own my own Home Theater Business. I love good and accurate images. I am also a trained video display calibrator. I was trained to calibrate displays by the Imaging Science Foundation or ISF. I have been doing calibrations for 14 years now.

As such, I know what to look for within images that should not be there or that is missing. In some ways it is a curse as I find improperly adjusted displays to be very annoying. It is the same way with music for me. I tend to really get on my wife's nerves from time to time. But I like to think that this is what one of the jobs of a husband is. Don't you?

I can't help you on the husband part although I think I might gravitate that way. I just have a hard time believing that the other reds wouldn't show a more obvious lean to blowing out than they are. I do believe that it is possible the one swatch is on the limit to start of blowing out so it could go over. The only problem I have with this is that Gabe looked at other recent cameras of all brands and is seeing a similar issue. Don't know if they are the same or similar though. Very weird none the less and something that would bother me more if I found it consistant through all of the channel and with other test shots post elsewhere. It could be an issue to look for with a new 7D2. I think it is possible that some of the first batch may have this issue if the fimware is converting at the limit or too strongly.

stsva wrote in post #17234561
AllenF-
I decided to take one more look at the red cloth in the IR samples. Looking at 200% view, what I found was that some of the cloth detail looks worse in the 7D2 samples compared to the 6D, and some looks virtually the same. That seems to indicate that it's something extrinsic to the cameras that's causing the issue. Here's a comparison, 7D2 on the top and 6D on the bottom, at 200% view in Photoshop. These were from the IR RAW ISO 200 NR0 files for both, processed through DPP with default sharpening for both using USM. Once in Photoshop, I applied a levels adjustment to both crops to bring out the detail.

OK now apply that same method to the 7DmkII image and then look at and compare ALL of the fabric samples with the 6D sample. Area for area. This will tell you if you tweeked the image to look the same in one place all the while it has messed up the rest of the image. If all the rest is fine then you have shown that the difference I have seen is mostly due to how the scene was exposed and PP can fix it. If on the other hand the image is right in one area and messed up in others then the fault is real and we must wait for more samples from IR of the production 7DmkII. Then we must compare those to the 6D and see how well it compares.

You were able to get them to PP well and I applaud your effort. This is what I was hoping to have happen. Not just speculation but real work with visual results. Thank you again.
Sadly you have some more testing/comparing to do but I bet you can do it in 5 mins time.

I suspect it will not work on the rest of the image as I could not get it to work for me but I did not do an intense effort as it was quickly seen to not work for me. For example darkening the leaf pattern detail to make it show up better caused a loss of the light swirling detail in the black fabric pattern. Also look at the very light white fabric and see if the embossed leaf pattern is over accentuated or blown out. These two will establish the limits to white and black levels. It may be acceptable to give up one or the other,however the 7D does not need to make this compromising choice as it renders them all correctly with no visible loss.

Once again great job!

2n10 wrote in post #17234724
I can't help you on the husband part although I think I might gravitate that way. I just have a hard time believing that the other reds wouldn't show a more obvious lean to blowing out than they are. I do believe that it is possible the one swatch is on the limit to start of blowing out so it could go over. The only problem I have with this is that Gabe looked at other recent cameras of all brands and is seeing a similar issue. Don't know if they are the same or similar though. Very weird none the less and something that would bother me more if I found it consistant through all of the channel and with other test shots post elsewhere. It could be an issue to look for with a new 7D2. I think it is possible that some of the first batch may have this issue if the firmware is converting at the limit or too strongly.

Think of it like a clipping audio amplifier. The louder you play the music it indeed gets louder but at a point it gets grungier. Keep turning up the volumn and it continues to sound more distorted. Keep going and you will take out the tweeters and this is not good.
There is no device to burn out it is only an image. Only the detail is lost and this is what I think is happening.

AllenF wrote in post #17234741
Think of it like a clipping audio amplifier. The louder you play the music it indeed gets louder but at a point it gets grungier. Keep turning up the volumn and it continues to sound more distorted. Keep going and you will take out the tweeters and this is not good.
There is no device to burn out it is only an image. Only the detail is lost and this is what I think is happening.

That is where I thought you were going. I am just not convinced it is the camera since it could be a DPP issue although I have not seen it with my equipment. It might be an IR issue as you are chasing with them, too. Strange none the less that it started with the more recent models if Gabe is right.