Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 29 Oct 2014 (Wednesday) 04:18
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Ten of the Most Expensive Photographs Ever Sold.

 
Tedder
Senior Member
Avatar
380 posts
Likes: 82
Joined Jan 2009
     
Nov 01, 2014 22:23 as a reply to  @ post 17246695 |  #151

OhLook:

Please try to refrain from making accusations. It's disrespectful and won't win any argument for you; it only makes you look irritable and picky.

Thank you for parsing "preferences" and "opinions." Let us say, for the sake of entertainment, that your observation is accurate. Between two people who hold opposing artistic opinions, by what process are we to determine which has the "valid critical standpoint" and therefore should be accepted as authoritative? Do we somehow measure their "levels of expertise" and pronounce that the one at the higher level is more worthy of being heard?

By the way, do you possess a sufficient "level of expertise" that your views are "valid"?

—Tedder


Tedder Stephenson's Flickr (external link)
Various Items (external link) Mineral Matters (external link) The Bench (external link) Tracks (external link) Cars and Stripes (external link) Behind the Wheel (external link) Shadows of Turning (external link) Circles of Confusion (external link) Waterous Disturbulations (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
OhLook
you get what you get
Avatar
19,493 posts
Gallery: 74 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7373
Joined Dec 2012
Location: California: SF Bay Area
     
Nov 01, 2014 23:36 |  #152

Tedder, having failed to see any increase in the civility of your discourse, I refuse to go on. Maybe someone else will answer your current questions.


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.), shoo-in | Comments welcome

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tedder
Senior Member
Avatar
380 posts
Likes: 82
Joined Jan 2009
     
Nov 02, 2014 00:50 as a reply to  @ OhLook's post |  #153

OhLook:

I'm sorry that you've chosen not to engage in civil and fruitful discussion on these important issues. I have enjoyed some of your comments, however, beginning with your entry into the thread at post 76 in response to three parenthetical words in one of my posts, as well as the immediate followup in which you began issuing warnings against pickiness and finger-wagging. Rest assured that I will give your warnings the consideration they're due.

And thank you for the post in which you informed us that "I don't like the works of Cindy Sherman" is not a statement of opinion. That's a classic! :D

I know now that only a few can "lay claim to a high level of expertise" in art and therefore take "valid critical standpoints." A few of you are evidently already there; the rest of us sure are trying! ;)

—Tedder


Tedder Stephenson's Flickr (external link)
Various Items (external link) Mineral Matters (external link) The Bench (external link) Tracks (external link) Cars and Stripes (external link) Behind the Wheel (external link) Shadows of Turning (external link) Circles of Confusion (external link) Waterous Disturbulations (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DoughnutPhoto
Senior Member
513 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 21
Joined Aug 2014
Location: the Netherlands
     
Nov 02, 2014 01:56 |  #154

Tedder wrote in post #17246745 (external link)
OhLook:

Between two people who hold opposing artistic opinions, by what process are we to determine which has the "valid critical standpoint" and therefore should be accepted as authoritative? Do we somehow measure their "levels of expertise" and pronounce that the one at the higher level is more worthy of being heard?

By the way, do you possess a sufficient "level of expertise" that your views are "valid"?

—Tedder

Well. That is the problem, isn't it? You're actually asking at this point "How do we determine something to be art?"

Usually when we state our opinion or views, the statements reveal more about ourselves than the art piece. If we want to determine the value of an art piece free from various perceptions, I suppose the best we can do is ask a number of reputable art critics.
Why? Certainly not because they know art and are therefore better... but because they know art and can base their opinions on arguments rather than pure opinions.

For example, you can certainly appreciate art without knowing rules of composition. But in that case, it will be very difficult to explain why you like a painting and it'll depend on your mood (in a very bad temper you won't like as much art). If you force yourself to name your preferences (such as: Oooh, I see what they did here, nice use of leading lines!) it helps to look past a first impression and to look beyond your own mood. It might lead to something like: "Hmmm, I don't particularly like this, but it does have nice use of rule of thirds, and the expressions on the faces are very nice."

And oh, I certainly don't consider my views on art to hold ANY value ;)


Canon 5d, 60d, 17-40mm L, 30mm Art, 50mm, 85mm

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Snafoo
Goldmember
Avatar
1,431 posts
Gallery: 92 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 712
Joined Feb 2011
Location: Peculiar
     
Nov 02, 2014 06:42 |  #155

OhLook wrote in post #17246847 (external link)
Tedder, having failed to see any increase in the civility of your discourse, I refuse to go on. Maybe someone else will answer your current questions.

Wise decision.


http://www.jonstot.com​/ (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
14,811 posts
Gallery: 160 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 4916
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Nov 02, 2014 09:49 |  #156

Snafoo wrote in post #17247192 (external link)
Wise decision.

Yes, I was a wise decision.
OhLook is a real classy lady who adds a lot of valuable contributions to many of the discussions here on POTN. It saddens me that someone has come on here trying to find fault with what she has to say, and every time they think they have found something faulty, they have to point it out. I cannot understand why they do this. Nor do I want to understand why they do it. I just want them to stop.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
OhLook
you get what you get
Avatar
19,493 posts
Gallery: 74 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7373
Joined Dec 2012
Location: California: SF Bay Area
     
Nov 02, 2014 10:00 |  #157

Thank you, Snafoo and Tom.


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.), shoo-in | Comments welcome

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
36,545 posts
Gallery: 147 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 6306
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:02 |  #158

I tried to get the attack switched to me LoL because I agree a lot with what she says and she has a great eye. She gets it and she is a lot more patient than I am. But it all ended up the way it always does in these type of threads. Sjones is always the really wise one and a very good photographer to boot.

I tend to stay and fight. It's just the way I am especially if I know I'm right. Not a lot of things in life I know about but I know a little about photography. It is my profession and how I feed the family . I studied it and art in college, I have taught it at the college level and it's also my hobby and my creative outlet. There is rarely a day that doesn't go by that I am not doing something in the process whether for a client or for my personal work.

What bugs me to no end are the folks that hate art and are yet trying to be artists. I love when someone says they are not creative. Then why are you participating in a creative field? And they all love creativity as long as it's something they have seen a million times and are perfectly safe with. Isn't that exactly the opposite of creativity?

Sad it always has to be like this.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
OhLook
you get what you get
Avatar
19,493 posts
Gallery: 74 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7373
Joined Dec 2012
Location: California: SF Bay Area
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:12 |  #159

airfrogusmc wrote in post #17247652 (external link)
I tried to get the attack switched to me LoL because I agree a lot with what she says and she has a great eye.

Thank you also.

What bugs me to no end are the folks that hate art and are yet trying to be artists. I love when someone says they are not creative. Then why are you participating in a creative field?

Some of them do it to make money or as "just a hobby." They may not think of all the decisions they make before and after activating the shutter as steps in a creative process.


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.), shoo-in | Comments welcome

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
36,545 posts
Gallery: 147 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 6306
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:20 |  #160

OhLook wrote in post #17247674 (external link)
Thank you also.

Some of them do it to make money or as "just a hobby." They may not think of all the decisions they make before and after activating the shutter as steps in a creative process.

Agree. Decisions are a huge part of this. What to include in the frame. What to leave out. Is everything in the frame supporting what i am trying to say visually? If it's not then it is hurting the image.

Then when talking about bodies of work, what to show and what not to show. Are the images I am showing together relating is some significant way. I have a show next March and I am going through that process right now. It' can be one of the most important but yet most difficult part of the entire process. Then when you have selected the images there is scale (size). Presentation and whats really important and, you wont know until you start hanging the show, flow.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Snafoo
Goldmember
Avatar
1,431 posts
Gallery: 92 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 712
Joined Feb 2011
Location: Peculiar
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:22 |  #161

airfrogusmc wrote in post #17247652 (external link)
...What bugs me to no end are the folks that hate art and are yet trying to be artists...

Same thoughts here. I would say more, but it would only fan the flames.


http://www.jonstot.com​/ (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
36,545 posts
Gallery: 147 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 6306
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:25 |  #162

Snafoo wrote in post #17247696 (external link)
Same thoughts here. I would say more, but it would only fan the flames.

:lol::lol::lol: I think sjones gets to it on the links he supplied.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Snafoo
Goldmember
Avatar
1,431 posts
Gallery: 92 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 712
Joined Feb 2011
Location: Peculiar
     
Nov 02, 2014 11:40 |  #163

OhLook wrote in post #17247674 (external link)
..Some of them do it to make money or as "just a hobby."...

I do it as "just a hobby", yet I have a deep appreciation for the work and thought that goes into serious photography.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #17247702 (external link)
:lol::lol::lol: I think sjones gets to it on the links he supplied.

Indeed he does. My sentiments exactly, only much more eloquent than I could ever muster.


http://www.jonstot.com​/ (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tedder
Senior Member
Avatar
380 posts
Likes: 82
Joined Jan 2009
     
Nov 02, 2014 22:03 |  #164

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
Well. That is the problem, isn't it? You're actually asking at this point "How do we determine something to be art?"

I think the question remains whether someone who wishes to express an opinion such as "I like that" or "I dislike that" about a work of art should feel free to do so or whether he's supposed to withhold his opinion because according to people who hold a differing view he lacks the credentials, has not attained a sufficiently high level of expertise, or hasn't read the requisite number of art-history books and therefore supposedly "doesn't know what he's talking about."

There's no requirement that anyone reach a certain status before he is permitted to state his views about works of art—not even if those works are by "leading figures in contemporary culture" (to repeat a phrase from a post above).

If, for example, someone says of one of the most expensive photographs ever sold that it's uninteresting, ugly, or boring (see above), it does not follow that he's ignorant, believes education is unnecessary, hates museums and art galleries and art in general, or is a drag on humankind (see above again). We're under no obligation to justify our likes and dislikes by employing the language of art criticism, and we do not need to be double checked or approved by "experts" who do. This is not mathematics; it's not physics; it's not an engineering problem.

That's the way I see it, even if it's not Miss Manners approved. :-o

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
Usually when we state our opinion or views, the statements reveal more about ourselves than the art piece. If we want to determine the value of an art piece free from various perceptions, I suppose the best we can do is ask a number of reputable art critics.
Why? Certainly not because they know art and are therefore better... but because they know art and can base their opinions on arguments rather than pure opinions.

That's interesting, but I'm not sure whether that first statement is true or whether it hits the point. Either way, is the value of a piece of art determined by "reputable art critics" except, to a degree, in a monetary sense? If we're speaking of artistic value, I see that as an individual matter.

I raised the following question in response to the idea that an appeal to authority, such as a "reputable art critic," is needed:

Between two people who hold opposing artistic opinions, by what process are we to determine which has the "valid critical standpoint" and therefore should be accepted as authoritative?

So, when two reputable art critics disagree, which (if either) has the "valid critical standpoint"? Because this is not mathematics, the answer is going to come down to this: The one I agree with trumps the one I disagree with. In short, you are the "authority."

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
For example, you can certainly appreciate art without knowing rules of composition. But in that case, it will be very difficult to explain why you like a painting...

That's a fine point except that I don't see how the degree of difficulty a person might have in explaining why he likes a painting is the issue either. The like or dislike is no more or less valid depending upon whether the person explains it well or explains it at all. That would be more of a communication issue, don't you think?

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
...and it'll depend on your mood (in a very bad temper you won't like as much art). If you force yourself to name your preferences (such as: Oooh, I see what they did here, nice use of leading lines!) it helps to look past a first impression and to look beyond your own mood.

I hadn't thought about the mood-swing angle. :-o

Have you noticed, though, that in these scenarios the knee-jerk response to the comment "I don't much care for that" is almost invariably "You just don't understand it"?

The presumption is that dislike is the result of ignorance, as if it were impossible to understand a work and yet say it stank. How often have you heard someone say "Oh, I really like that" only to be told "You just don't understand it!"?

It's funny how that works.

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
It might lead to something like: "Hmmm, I don't particularly like this, but it does have nice use of rule of thirds, and the expressions on the faces are very nice."

Right, but if you disliked it, that dislike would not be any less legitimate if you didn't mention the rule of thirds, would it? Why attempt to justify the dislike? and to whom are you attempting to justify it?

It's interesting that you mention the rule of thirds in your example, though, given that one of the posters above has been known to copy and paste a list of quotations on the subject of rules that begins with this: "There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs."

Even when we say we agree with the various "there are no rules" statements, when it suits us, we tend to cite rules to support our views. But if someone says "I dislike the work of Cindy Sherman," that viewpoint is neither validated nor rendered invalid by mentioning the rules of composition or even by critiques such as we find in post 143:

...But for critical examination Sheman's [Sic] piece you posted the link to has classic elements like repeating shapes, triangular composition, use of warm colors and a strong diagonal creates a tension along with the color pallet and the breaking up of the pattern on the floor. That is further enhanced by not being 100% sure of what has happened.

I'd just as soon hear someone say, "I dislike the work of Cindy Sherman." :-o

DoughnutPhoto wrote in post #17246997 (external link)
And oh, I certainly don't consider my views on art to hold ANY value ;)

Your views are probably of greatest value to yourself, just as mine are to me. :-)


Tedder Stephenson's Flickr (external link)
Various Items (external link) Mineral Matters (external link) The Bench (external link) Tracks (external link) Cars and Stripes (external link) Behind the Wheel (external link) Shadows of Turning (external link) Circles of Confusion (external link) Waterous Disturbulations (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
14,811 posts
Gallery: 160 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 4916
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Nov 03, 2014 00:00 |  #165

I really have some things I'd like to say about this topic, but at this point, I think that everything I said would be quoted and picked apart. And that counter-points would be made to every one of my points. I really don't feel like having my words picked apart, and having my statements challenged . . . so I'm going to pass. Sometimes I'm up to those debates, but there's already been far too much of that in this particular thread. Enough is enough! It's a shame that this thread is being ruined because someone just can't help but to pick apart and scrutinize everything that people have to say. If this person would tell us that he's finished posting to this thread, then maybe I would feel up to contributing again. I think we'd all breathe a sigh of relief!


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

21,531 views & 0 likes for this thread
Ten of the Most Expensive Photographs Ever Sold.
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member was a spammer, and banned as such!
1211 guests, 374 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.