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Thread started 31 Oct 2014 (Friday) 02:06
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Is it any wonder shops are closing down...

 
Preeb
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Nov 21, 2014 14:01 |  #76

20droger wrote in post #17285594 (external link)
And here I thought that in Germany the capitalized the name of everything!!!

Here in Benson, AZ, we have two choices: buy from Walmart; or drive 50 miles to the next town.

Or go online. I could drive 40 miles to the next town, but that's just another Walmart. Fortunately, the Walmart here in Sterling hasn't yet managed to drive all of the locals out of business. We still have two other grocery stores to choose from, although they are smaller than Walmart, they usually have the shelves stocked better, and we make a point of shopping there rather than Walmart. I've only been here since mid July, and I'm already sick of the empty shelves and poor selection at Walmart.

I do most of my non grocery shopping online. Amazon has generally just as good prices, usually free delivery, and a selection that Walmart can't touch. And the shelves are rarely empty.

The Denver area still has one good local camera shop (Englewood Camera on South Broadway), but it's 2½ hours away from here, so it's not my best choice unless I'm already in the city.


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andrikos
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Nov 21, 2014 14:08 |  #77

20droger wrote in post #17285594 (external link)
And here I thought that in Germany the capitalized the name of everything!!!

Here in Benson, AZ, we have two choices: buy from Walmart; or drive 50 miles to the next town.

Indeed true, too many capitalizations in German. ;)


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elrey2375
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Nov 21, 2014 14:10 |  #78

There's a flip side to this that is just as bad IMO. I have exactly one camera store in my town. I have a Best Buy but I think they just got the 7D in stock a few weeks ago, so they're useless. At this one shop, the employees know a lot about photography and cameras, maybe a little too much. To the point where I don't even go in anymore because I don't want to be inundated with info that I already know.


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Nov 21, 2014 14:28 |  #79

Luckless wrote in post #17285190 (external link)
And the employer didn't hold a gun to their head, but have you tried starving or freezing to death? I hear they're fun things to do.

Also, if all you're paying me is barely enough to feed myself and stay alive, and you don't want to offer any more than that, then you can bet that I have little interest in doing anymore than the barest minimum needed to meet your job description. Why should I do any more to help you when you're barely willing to help me?

that kind of attitude is why they will always be poor. Show me an employee that goes above and beyond what they are asked to do and i will show you a very successful person. And yes it may not happen at that store or all in one day but it will happen.


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Nov 21, 2014 20:52 |  #80

elitejp wrote in post #17285705 (external link)
that kind of attitude is why they will always be poor.

...nah, it really isn't.


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JeffreyG
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Nov 21, 2014 21:18 |  #81

banquetbear wrote in post #17286223 (external link)
...nah, it really isn't.

True that. Hard working minimum wage grinders just get the 'opportunity' to manage their fellow serfs....usually while still making the minimum.

Horatio Alger stories are fairy tales, there really is no advancement path from the very bottom in the vast majority of these kinds of jobs. They are total dead ends.


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20droger
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Nov 21, 2014 22:18 as a reply to  @ JeffreyG's post |  #82

They're not serfs. They're peons. You can tell because they are regularly peed on.




  
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OhLook
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Nov 21, 2014 22:21 |  #83

Preeb wrote in post #17285653 (external link)
I do most of my non grocery shopping online. Amazon has generally just as good prices, usually free delivery, and a selection that Walmart can't touch.

If you don't wish to support businesses with sleazy ethical practices, you'll have to avoid Amazon also. Word about their treatment of employees and competitors is getting out. The New Yorker did an exposé of Amazon a few weeks ago.


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Nov 22, 2014 09:45 |  #84

JeffreyG wrote in post #17286259 (external link)
True that. Hard working minimum wage grinders just get the 'opportunity' to manage their fellow serfs....usually while still making the minimum.

Horatio Alger stories are fairy tales, there really is no advancement path from the very bottom in the vast majority of these kinds of jobs. They are total dead ends.

Yes, there are dead end jobs. They are meant as a temporary paycheck while you're doing something else, not as a career.

You absolutely not will get a better position if you work as little as possible. Well, not unless you're in the union. And a lot of these "working minimum wage grinders" are paying the price for not working at all in school. And please, don't give me the cr@p about "not having opportunity". My friend was a teacher in one of the Detroit's less-than-successful school districts. Not the worst part of the area, just a poor one. He quit because he got tired of being treated like a clown by the kids he was bending over backwards to help. He did have a few kids over the years - from the same poor working class / welfare background as the rest - who worked hard in school and went on to get decent jobs. The problem is with culture that despises learning and makes fun of kids for even trying in school. As my grandma - who was from a very poor family herself - used to say, "they are poor because they are dumb, and they are dumb because they are poor".

The school my own children go to has a fair percentage of kids who just don't give a cr@p about stupid things like getting good grades. This school district is one of the feeder schools to the top college in the state. Some of the kids will go on having great education and successful careers, and others - who go to the same school and have the same teachers - will be stuck with dead end jobs. The difference is in how hard they work and how much help they get from their family.


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JeffreyG
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Nov 22, 2014 10:13 |  #85

Amamba wrote in post #17286916 (external link)
Yes, there are dead end jobs. They are meant as a temporary paycheck while you're doing something else, not as a career.

Right. I and most of the people I work with had dead end jobs at one point or another as a way of making some cash while in school or whatever. I worked some jobs like that for beer money, and I was an indifferent employee because the jobs were boring and doing a great job would net me nothing.

I work in a technology industry. My coworkers start making enough money to put them in the top 20% of American incomes and our local management staff probably tops out around the top 5% of incomes.

And all of us, pretty much, came from families that look just like our own. Upper middle class or wealthy, good neighborhoods, good school districts (or Cranbrook Academy, Detroit Country Day) etc. We all went to college and most of us had at least a good portion paid by our families.

I don't think I work with anyone who came up from poor families, worked hard, played by the rules and got ahead. Nobody worked their way up from the mailroom. Heck, nobody worked their way here from even a bad neighborhood by going to college, because we don't look at students from colleges that those people can get into.

You absolutely not will get a better position if you work as little as possible.

Fair enough, but that's the corollary. My main point is that all of these dead end jobs in retail and food service have no path for advancement. So the obvious tactic is to work as hard as it takes to not get fired while grabbing a paycheck. But your real efforts need to be elsewhere, because working super hard at a dead end job will get you nothing. That's why you cannot find a good sales associate at Best Buy and why the guy bagging your fast food order does not care to get it right.

If he is really smart and motivated, he's spending his time getting a degree or starting his own side company. If not, he's still going to be bagging your fries poorly in ten years. And getting better at bagging your fries is a complete waste of this guy's time.

My friend was a teacher in one of the Detroit's less-than-successful school districts. Not the worst part of the area, just a poor one. He quit because he got tired of being treated like a clown by the kids he was bending over backwards to help. He did have a few kids over the years - from the same poor working class / welfare background as the rest - who worked hard in school and went on to get decent jobs.

The point of your story seems to be that poor people (with a very few exceptions) are despicable people that are impossible to work with. I'm not sure what else to take away from that.


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Nov 22, 2014 10:47 |  #86

OhLook wrote in post #17286325 (external link)
If you don't wish to support businesses with sleazy ethical practices, you'll have to avoid Amazon also. Word about their treatment of employees and competitors is getting out. The New Yorker did an exposé of Amazon a few weeks ago.

There are no companies without skeletons in their closet.


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Nov 22, 2014 10:51 |  #87

Amamba wrote in post #17286916 (external link)
Yes, there are dead end jobs. They are meant as a temporary paycheck while you're doing something else, not as a career.

You may want to go look at some figures for the North American job markets, and see just what percentage of the work force, of all ages, are being employed in jobs paying less than $30k a year.

"Stop being lazy and get a better job" only works when there is actually an abundance of better jobs out there. One of my former classmates is working HR for a large company out of Montreal. He crunched some numbers last year and they had on average something like 400 applicants per position for entry level work. Majority of which were from people working retail or service industry jobs, and a good chunk of the rest unemployed academics.

And you can just as easily turn the concept around. Want good and helpful service agents? Stop being lazy and pay enough to actually motivate employees so you can keep one ones with a good work ethic around rather than forcing them to move on, and take all their skill and experience with them.


Why should those at the bottom bother putting any more effort into their job than they need to when so many of them stop by the food bank on their way home? Why should they put more effort into making those at the top richer when they get paid the same even if they do less?


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Nov 22, 2014 11:32 |  #88

Luckless wrote in post #17287028 (external link)
You may want to go look at some figures for the North American job markets, and see just what percentage of the work force, of all ages, are being employed in jobs paying less than $30k a year.

"Stop being lazy and get a better job" only works when there is actually an abundance of better jobs out there. One of my former classmates is working HR for a large company out of Montreal. He crunched some numbers last year and they had on average something like 400 applicants per position for entry level work. Majority of which were from people working retail or service industry jobs, and a good chunk of the rest unemployed academics.

What education did they have ? Did they go through high school working their rear off, or partying ? And what "academics" were they ? Psychology ? English ? Biology ? A person I know with a PhD in Computer Science is making 2 x what I make, and I am not complaining about my job.

How many people get degrees that are all but guaranteed them to be unemployed (at least in their field) ? Sure, psychology sounds very cool and all, but most end up at the car dealerships or as pharmacy techs.

How many people with engineering degrees are long time unemployed in an OK economy ? Some are doing great and some have to take contract positions that suck and require lots of travel, but most anyone who is any good can earn a living. Of course you have to study hard in school, memorizing and understanding the formulas that start on one page and end on another, there's a profound chick deficiency in classes you take. and then you're looking forward for a lifetime of working overtime and traveling to places most people would not look at twice.

Luckless wrote in post #17287028 (external link)
And you can just as easily turn the concept around. Want good and helpful service agents? Stop being lazy and pay enough to actually motivate employees so you can keep one ones with a good work ethic around rather than forcing them to move on, and take all their skill and experience with them.

Why should those at the bottom bother putting any more effort into their job than they need to when so many of them stop by the food bank on their way home? Why should they put more effort into making those at the top richer when they get paid the same even if they do less?

People who have that attitude "I don't work well unless you pay me well" will be slacking off just as much in a $100k job as they do in a $40K job.

People with the right attitude may not get rich but they are more likely to be successful.


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Nov 22, 2014 11:58 |  #89

elrey2375 wrote in post #17287022 (external link)
There are no companies without skeletons in their closet.

Perhaps true, but not all companies have warehouses full of skeletons.

Amamba wrote in post #17287082 (external link)
What education did they have ? Did they go through high school working their rear off, or partying ?

It's become plain that no matter what facts are presented, you'll explain them away with a comment that assigns responsibility for outcomes to the individuals who experience those outcomes. This view comes down to a contrast between "good people" and "bad people." The assumption is that whatever one gets is what one deserved. I don't agree that reality always embodies justice.

How many people with engineering degrees are long time unemployed in an OK economy ? . . . Of course . . . there's a profound chick deficiency in classes you take.

Does this "deficiency" suggest anything to you about young women's prospects for well-paid employment?


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Nov 22, 2014 12:05 |  #90

OhLook wrote in post #17287106 (external link)
Perhaps true, but not all companies have warehouses full of skeletons.

It's become plain that no matter what facts are presented, you'll explain them away with a comment that assigns responsibility for outcomes to the individuals who experience those outcomes. This view comes down to a contrast between "good people" and "bad people." The assumption is that whatever one gets is what one deserved. I don't agree that reality always embodies justice.

Does this "deficiency" suggest anything to you about young women's prospects for well-paid employment?

The (20+ years ago) lack of females in the Mechanical Engineering classes had little to do with their job prospects. Most of the (few) ones I took my classes with are all rather well employed, according to LinkedIn.

Yes there are bad trends in the economy, and they are only going to get worse. Nevertheless, the past 20 years were decent for the people with right skills and right attitude. All of my friends are making much more than the minimal wage, some are more successful than others. My friend's daughter is 23, graduated last year from Oakland U, making over $60k straight out of college and it's just the beginning. For those who are unfamiliar with Metro Detroit area, Oakland U is a (relatively) inexpensive local college, not hard to get into, not some super duper private school that costs as much as a mansion. Again, she had to study hard, keep good grades, work after school hours for very little pay just to get experience, stay with her parents instead of moving in with her boyfriend. It all paid off. The times when you could barely get your GED and then find an entry level job that allowed you to maintain a family above poverty level were gone even before I put down my little Winnie the Pooh book.


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