Is it any wonder shops are closing down...

Amamba, would you continue working just as hard as you do at whatever jobs you have if you were offered half the money going forward?

I've gone into a work place with my usual strong work ethic where the employer proceeded to treat me as disposable crap. And since his policy was to make no official statement on employees (aka, no references) I proceeded to do as little as possible while looking for other jobs, while at the same time filing several complains for his work place health and safety failures, and other legal violations. Between my current day job and contracts I'm now making around ten times more than I was working for him, his company is out of business, and last I heard he is still facing legal proceedings.


Poor treatment of the lowest tier jobs is bad for everyone. Those who get stuck working in them are now frequently working two and three of them to survive. They end up not having time for improvement, they can't afford additional education or the time it would involve because they are busy just trying to survive another month. They become a drain on resources due to the frequency of substance abuses and crime, and their kids are more likely to become caught in the same traps as their parents. In turn many of these jobs have little to no skills development, so when other employers go looking to hire people to fill more demanding jobs there are far fewer people available to fill them. Also, when other people turn around and try to sell products and services, then we have an ever growing population in North America who can't afford them.

Large numbers of low paying jobs in any industry creates a race to the bottom. A long, slow, and depressing race that has been sapping economic power and mobility for decades. And anyone who hangs out in a photography forum, a rather luxury focused business or hobby, should be rather concerned over such issues.

elrey2375 wrote in post #17287022
There are no companies without skeletons in their closet.

Costco?

This is instant gratification coming back to bite us.

Low prices feel good now, but they come back around in the form of reduced wages, zero benefits and fewer jobs, which reduces buying power. That goes beyond the people working in the stores to those designing, manufacturing, engineering, programming, anything that can be outsourced overseas. Low prices become worthless when your buying power leaves you in perpetual survival mode.

Mike Deep wrote in post #17287203
This is instant gratification coming back to bite us.

Low prices feel good now, but they come back around in the form of reduced wages, zero benefits and fewer jobs, which reduces buying power. That goes beyond the people working in the stores to those designing, manufacturing, engineering, programming, anything that can be outsourced overseas. Low prices become worthless when your buying power leaves you in perpetual survival mode.

+1

It's the "walmart shoppers become walmart workers cannot afford to shop at walmart" syndrome.

Amamba wrote in post #17287116
The (20+ years ago) lack of females in the Mechanical Engineering classes had little to do with their job prospects.

I guess you mean that the low participation rate by females in mech. eng. had little to do with the job prospects of females who were in mech. eng. (?).

I'll try to state my point more explicitly. You write as if only males needed jobs. Your formula for success has two phases: (1) Enter a masculine field of study. (2) Apply nose to grindstone. But many women aren't cut out to be engineers, and many women might succeed in engineering but have their interests elsewhere or were never encouraged to play/work with mechanical things. Then there's the biological difference. Men's and women's brains, on average, differ in the ability to mentally rotate objects in space--just one example of a skill that's used in some occupations and not others.

I know how to do nose to grindstone. During and after college, however, I fell into the publishing industry because my main strengths were verbal ability and artistic ability. (A part-time job as a student led to a more or less full-time one later, with the same employer.) I supported myself but never got the kind of pay that amounts to financial success by normal standards. Publishing is a low-paying field for most people in it, and one reason is that so many publishing jobs were historically filled by women.

What major would you recommend for a girl entering college who excels at her command of English, isn't interested in business, was shooed away when construction was going on at home, and was always given dolls to play with instead of Erector sets? Must she major in computers because that's the only place where the money is these days?

andrikos wrote in post #17287208
+1

It's the "walmart shoppers become walmart workers cannot afford to shop at walmart" syndrome.

Americans do this kind of thing to themselves every day. Alexis de Tocqueville said, after reading the Constitution, that Americans will always have the government they deserve. He was right. The same applies to every other aspect of American life. The goal in any retail operation, and every (ok, most) American shopping experience is to get it for the lowest price. If price is driving your selection, by definition, quality is not. Witness, air-travel, American cars, Walmart, American televisions, American optics, McDonald's. Americans demand cheaper and cheaper goods, then decry that nothing is made in America anymore. Quality electronics come from the Far East. Quality optics come from Germany. You know what Americans are still good at? Weapons. We build the best fighters, bombers, carriers, air-defense systems, and more, that money can buy. Why? Because those who purchase them value quality over price. And we yammer on about what a violent place the world is. But hey, they are killing each other with American weapons. And I suppose that is a good thing. At least they are not killing us with them, yet.

OhLook wrote in post #17287222
What major would you recommend for a girl entering college who excels at her command of English, isn't interested in business, was shooed away when construction was going on at home, and was always given dolls to play with instead of Erector sets? Must she major in computers because that's the only place where the money is these days?

Evolutionary biology?
Biochemistry?
Biotech?
Paleontology?
Anything in the medical/health industry?
School teacher?

Not sure what your interests are other that your excellent command of English.
Are any of the above subjects interesting to you?

OhLook wrote in post #17287222
...

I know how to do nose to grindstone. During and after college, however, I fell into the publishing industry because my main strengths were verbal ability and artistic ability. (A part-time job as a student led to a more or less full-time one later, with the same employer.) I supported myself but never got the kind of pay that amounts to financial success by normal standards. Publishing is a low-paying field for most people in it, and one reason is that so many publishing jobs were historically filled by women.

What major would you recommend for a girl entering college who excels at her command of English, isn't interested in business, was shooed away when construction was going on at home, and was always given dolls to play with instead of Erector sets? Must she major in computers because that's the only place where the money is these days?

Put that question to Elizabeth Holmes.

...the reality of why people are in poverty is a hugely complicated subject that involves much more than a simple dismissive "they don't work hard enough". I'd love to engage you guys on the topic, but this is a photography forum, and there really are more appropriate places to discuss this topic than here.

Luckless wrote in post #17287147
Amamba, would you continue working just as hard as you do at whatever jobs you have if you were offered half the money going forward?

I'd be doing my job and looking for a new one. I would not be slacking. If I came to work I may as well work.

Luckless wrote in post #17287147
Large numbers of low paying jobs in any industry creates a race to the bottom. A long, slow, and depressing race that has been sapping economic power and mobility for decades. And anyone who hangs out in a photography forum, a rather luxury focused business or hobby, should be rather concerned over such issues.

AFAIK the problem is that the entry level jobs are disappearing thanks in part to the globalization and in part to automation. A person with high skill in a high demand field will always find a job; the problem is that someone with a mediocre skill set is out of a job. So a "large number of low paying jobs" does not seem to be the problem, it the small number of jobs that is the problem.

Globalization and automation just started to wreck havoc on our employment landscape. Jobs like delivery / lond distance truck driver, taxi driver, warehouse clerk are going to disappear completely within 20-30 years. The autonomous vehicles technology is already here and it's fully practical, the implementation is being worked on as we speak. Globalization has slowed down but it's far from over. But none of this has anything to do with personal choices or work ethics.

OhLook wrote in post #17287222
I guess you mean that the low participation rate by females in mech. eng. had little to do with the job prospects of females who were in mech. eng. (?).

I'll try to state my point more explicitly. You write as if only males needed jobs. Your formula for success has two phases: (1) Enter a masculine field of study. (2) Apply nose to grindstone. But many women aren't cut out to be engineers, and many women might succeed in engineering but have their interests elsewhere or were never encouraged to play/work with mechanical things.

Then there's the biological difference. Men's and women's brains, on average, differ in the ability to mentally rotate objects in space--just one example of a skill that's used in some occupations and not others.

This is a very sexist point of view.

I work with many female engineers. They seem to be doing just fine. Some are good, some are great, some are so-so. Just like men.

Engineering is not for everyone, male or female. But then there are other fields in which one can earn a decent living. Health care, finance (don't have to be a Wall Street guru, a CPA can make good money too), computer sciences, some sales jobs, some marketing jobs, some business management jobs, law. My cousin is an account manager (sales), she's 16 years younger and makes way more than I do. Again, she studied hard, got into a good school, graduated with a business management degree with honors, and worked her pretty little rear end off afterwards. She didn't get a major in French Art & then get lucky.

OhLook wrote in post #17287222
I know how to do nose to grindstone. During and after college, however, I fell into the publishing industry because my main strengths were verbal ability and artistic ability. (A part-time job as a student led to a more or less full-time one later, with the same employer.) I supported myself but never got the kind of pay that amounts to financial success by normal standards. Publishing is a low-paying field for most people in it, and one reason is that so many publishing jobs were historically filled by women.

What major would you recommend for a girl entering college who excels at her command of English, isn't interested in business, was shooed away when construction was going on at home, and was always given dolls to play with instead of Erector sets? Must she major in computers because that's the only place where the money is these days?

Well, I'd give her the same advice I am giving to my children - you are responsible for your own future, whatever field or job you chose, better make sure you can make a comfortable living at it. If you select a field in which you're all but guaranteed to be unemployed, you have to live with consequences of that decision. All we as parents can do is push them to maintain good grades and try & pay for their college so that they don't have a large debt upon graduation; I am not going to select a major for them, but I am making it perfectly clear now (they are still in middle school) that if they pick English or Marine Biology as their majors, they will need to find a job and put themselves through college because we will not be paying for it or co-signing on any student loans.

Nothing is guaranteed, of course - you can pick a well paying field and something will change and all of a sudden your degree is no longer as hot as it was. But it's different from choosing a profession that is commonly known to not provide a meaningful employment to 80% of graduates. Or not getting any education at all, not getting any marketable skill, and whining that society does not provide you with a middle class livable wage. God knows, this society is full of problems and the employment field is getting worse, but some basics are the same today as they were 20 or 40 years ago. Someone who has no skill, no useful degree, no desire to work hard, will likely not succeed and will remain poor. There are still jobs where an uneducated, unskilled person could make $70K a year by standing on an assembly line and doing a kind of job a trained monkey could do better, but these are few and far in between and disappearing fast, and one of the reason we have hard time competing not only with Chinese, but even with far better paid Koreans.

andrikos wrote in post #17287230

What major would you recommend for a girl entering college . . .

Evolutionary biology?
Biochemistry?
Biotech?
Paleontology?
Anything in the medical/health industry?
School teacher?

Not sure what your interests are other that your excellent command of English.
Are any of the above subjects interesting to you?

Several of them, but my question was hypothetical. It wasn't about me. I haven't been a student for lo these many decades.

I was asking Amamba. He's the one who predicts wealth for anyone who gets an engineering degree and works tirelessly. The fact that women are less likely than men to become engineers, for reasons not of their own making, undermines this vision of a fair world where deserving people get the best jobs. If that isn't enough, an even more obvious source of unfairness exists: most men and women aren't smart enough to be engineers.

OhLook wrote in post #17287426
Several of them, but my question was hypothetical. It wasn't about me. I haven't been a student for lo these many decades.

I was asking Amamba. He's the one who predicts wealth for anyone who gets an engineering degree and works tirelessly. The fact that women are less likely than men to become engineers, for reasons not of their own making, undermines this vision of a fair world where deserving people get the best jobs. If that isn't enough, an even more obvious source of unfairness exists: most men and women aren't smart enough to be engineers.

Nothing is fair. That is not the way ANYTHING works. When someone complains, "It isn't fair!", I take that to mean, "I didn't get my way." or "That is not what I planned." Life isn't 'fair' to anyone. Never has been, never will be. It isn't supposed to be. Time spent agonizing about it is wasted. Pick yourself up, decide on the best course of action, based on where you ARE, not where you wanted to be, and move on. The world owes you nothing. It never did.

Mike Deep wrote in post #17287203
Low prices feel good now, but they come back around in the form of reduced wages, zero benefits and fewer jobs, which reduces buying power. That goes beyond the people working in the stores to those designing, manufacturing, engineering, programming, anything that can be outsourced overseas. Low prices become worthless when your buying power leaves you in perpetual survival mode.

Hmmm....no clear idea what to say here but this is kind of funny as contrasted with at least the theories of markets.

All consumers are supposed to be rational actors who seek out the best products at the best prices. Deliberately paying more for some community good is not rational, and supposedly bad for everyone. Only by relentless self interest can the free market make us all rich.

In other words.....no ideology can long survive when faced with reality.

Amamba wrote in post #17287425
This is a very sexist point of view.

I don't think so. Research bears it out.

This is a very sexist way of expressing your opinion of your cousin's devotion to her chosen field.

How can you possibly say in advance that choosing a particular major means a kid will be jobless four years later? Considering the troubles that the world's oceans are in, I'd say marine biology is a good bet for future employment.

Your children have a better chance of getting a white-collar job if they complete college with any major at all than if they never enroll because they can't afford to.

Evidently you think of college as vocational school and are not interested in having adult children who are educated people. No such expectations weighed me down in my student days. I majored in humanities and started earning a living immediately. No need for money from home.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17287444
Nothing is fair. That is not the way ANYTHING works.

Some things do work fairly. Dealing with decent, honorable people does. If my post came off as a howl of protest against unfairness, that wasn't my intention. I was simply arguing against Amamba's idea that if you don't have a job, or you don't have a good job, it must be your fault; you're lazy, you partied through high school, you have a bad attitude.

Even Horatio Alger, that champion of hard work and good attitudes, acknowledged the role of luck in one's fate. His novels are full of improbable coincidences. A boy finds a section of railroad track that's washed out. He flags down the oncoming passenger train, preventing a derailment. The train is carrying a kindly old gentleman who just happens to be the president of the railroad . . .

i blame the internet regarding all this change,as it has its pro's but alot of bad things have followed it course,and i'm just absolutely sure there's no going back to the good old days! as we can only talk about them...