Is it any wonder shops are closing down...

OhLook wrote in post #17287426
Several of them, but my question was hypothetical. It wasn't about me. I haven't been a student for lo these many decades.

I was asking Amamba. He's the one who predicts wealth for anyone who gets an engineering degree and works tirelessly. The fact that women are less likely than men to become engineers, for reasons not of their own making, undermines this vision of a fair world where deserving people get the best jobs. If that isn't enough, an even more obvious source of unfairness exists: most men and women aren't smart enough to be engineers.

First, I did not predict "wealth" for anyone. Simply saying that statistically and historically there are degrees that simply don't provide fruitful employment in a chosen field. And degrees that, statistically, are far more likely to provide decent living. This was just as true 50 years ago as it is now.

Second, that whole "no place for women in engineering" is a complete and utter BS. I work for one of the largest engineering firms in the US. Plenty of women here, plenty of them in management position, quite a few in field working just as hard as men.

Third, why do you get so hung up on engineering ? There's plenty of other fields with good jobs.

There's a problem with lack of relatively well paying jobs for people without desirable college degrees. This is a very real problem with really bad consequences. But even before this became a problem, someone without a degree had to have a marketable skill to make a decent wage. I don't believe a job flipping burghers at McDonalds or as a night security guard would ever make anyone anything but poor. There were jobs like die setter, tool maker, many low volume assembly line jobs that required skill and paid relatively well, these jobs are now gone.

There's also another problem - people with no skill, no degree (or a degree that does not provide employment) and a sucky work attitude. These people would be in bad shape in any economy and for most of history, and in our challenging times that is a really bad shape. If someone doesn't have a skill or a marketable education, why do you think they deserve middle class living ?

Amamba wrote in post #17287584
... If someone doesn't have a skill or a marketable education, why do you think they deserve middle class living ?

Because everyone 'deserves' to be a winner. Try to find out who lost a 3rd grade basketball game. Nobody. Everyone is a winner. I can't imagine how we got adults who think like that.

I have a brother who thinks people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet should pay more taxes so people like him, in low-pay, low-skill, dead-end jobs don't have to pay. When I tell him that both those gentlemen DO pay their taxes, and employ thousands of people, and GIVE AWAY more money everyday than my brother will earn in his life, he says, "Well, they should!" Only in America.

JeffreyG wrote in post #17287456
Hmmm....no clear idea what to say here but this is kind of funny as contrasted with at least the theories of markets.

All consumers are supposed to be rational actors who seek out the best products at the best prices. Deliberately paying more for some community good is not rational, and supposedly bad for everyone. Only by relentless self interest can the free market make us all rich.

In other words.....no ideology can long survive when faced with reality.

I definitely haven't seen many rational actors at my local Walmart, but then I haven't been there in years.

I don't really mind a store or employee being ignorant of the products, but what ticks me off is when they act as if they know what they are talking about (commercials, in person, etc.).

Also annoying is if I ask a question about a product and the employee starts to read the box to find the answer. Geesh. I hadn't thought of that.

But it would be so refreshing if someone simply said, "I don't know" when I ask a question instead of wasting my time by running through an exercise in futility that will never answer the question.

Then again, I stopped asking questions about cameras a long time ago at Best Buy and other so-called camera stores (the mall types).

Here in Atlanta there is only one real camera store (some might argue, but they really can't solve problems that most pros have). Showcase photo is the real deal.

But I rarely even go there (it's an hour away).

I shop online after lots of research.

By the way, Adorama's live help online is fantastic.

As I said, in my experience, before Internet research became commonplace, the "knowledgeable" and allegedly well paid salesmen of the yore were mainly trying to sell / upsell / bait & switch. Most worked on commission and therefore had to learn the intricacies of the product they sold so that they could peddle the stuff to the averagely informed buyer. And even the better informed (by the standards of the time) and enthusiastic users had less access to unbiased product / pricing info.

Now, thanks to the net, the average buyer is quite a bit better informed, both about the specs and about the price, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of BB paying customers fall into two categories - those who are still fairly computer illiterate ( a rapidly dwindling number) and those who want instant gratification and will pay extra to get it immediately (also, probably, not the majority of buying public).

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17287617
Because everyone 'deserves' to be a winner. Try to find out who lost a 3rd grade basketball game. Nobody. Everyone is a winner. I can't imagine how we got adults who think like that.

To be fair a lot of the time that schools implement these "everyone wins" rules or outright bans competitive games/teams its not because of the students. Most students are mature enough to learn how to take a win and a loss - its more to do with parents - specifically the pushy ones who are determined to have their kid WIN. Not just the eager parents keen to promote their childs skill/interest but the ones who really won't tolerate loss

Overread wrote in post #17288871
To be fair a lot of the time that schools implement these "everyone wins" rules or outright bans competitive games/teams its not because of the students. Most students are mature enough to learn how to take a win and a loss - its more to do with parents - specifically the pushy ones who are determined to have their kid WIN. Not just the eager parents keen to promote their childs skill/interest but the ones who really won't tolerate loss

No kidding. For one thing, I think these 'no score' leagues are close to a myth, or at least relegated to the really small kids like <7. I've never seen a group of 3rd graders (9 and 10 year old kids) that were not keeping score.

But your comments on the parents is spot on. My 2nd oldest plays competitive soccer, and some of the parents are just way too emotionally invested in the outcome. At least that's what I gather listening to them yelling.

Once she had a coach (and this would have been around 3rd grade) who lost it and yelled at the umpire so long (this umpire would be about a 15 year old girl) that she had to stop the game and go get her boss to tell him to shut up. Flat out embarrassing.
'

I used to work in a camera store in another life. Back then it was mail-order we had to compete with, and customers were more distrusting, so it was easy to keep the customers. For those that go that far back, it was when Nikon's F4 (late '80's) came out. There were four-five stores that were competing in the immediate area. One store had the nastiest counter-help, another was very snobbish, that left three of us. I can tell you that even the nasty help knew something about their product line, that is not the case anymore Of those stores only one is still in business, the snobs. I needed (if there is such a word in photography) some gear and went to that store, l left within 10 minutes. In another occasion I went to BestBuy to check out a 50mm F1.8, I had to wait about 20 minutes because the employee that was "certifiied" to change lenses was not back from lunch. It seems that ignorance and indifference are a quality, not a flaw in today's market place. Even the employees are not interested in learning anything about the products they sell, and not just in photography--almost everything else as well. Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion "Don't ask the question if you don't know the answer". I agree that businesses want/need to pay as little as possible, but the employees also seem to take pride in their ignorance I like to keep my business domestic, ideally local, but it truly is getting harder.

retail work is hard. If you're smart you avoid it so that you can work less to make more money. Right?

When I worked in a factory many moons ago, there were temporary workers and permanent staff. The mantra of the temporary staff was, when we get paid what you ( the permanent staff ) get paid, we'll do what you do. It caused lots of bad feeling. If you take a job, you do the work regardless. If I swept the streets/cleaned toilets I would be the best at those jobs, it's my nature. People today are having that ethic kicked out of them by some very wealthy people.

In retail, the shareholders are king. People on minimum wage are having their hours cut to say 6 hours a week to maintain profit margins for the wealthy shareholders. The taxpayers ( many on minimum wages too ) then pick up the bill to maintain a living wage for these people to eat. Is that a society people want to live in ?

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17287617
. . . I have a brother who thinks people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet should pay more taxes so people like him, in low-pay, low-skill, dead-end jobs don't have to pay. When I tell him that both those gentlemen DO pay their taxes, and employ thousands of people, and GIVE AWAY more money everyday than my brother will earn in his life, he says, "Well, they should!" Only in America.

Warren Buffet also thinks he should pay more taxes though he has not talked or written about giving your brother a free ride. IMHO the wage slaves at camera shops and even those who exist far below the poverty line should be paying taxes because they are, after all, part of the community.

I pay taxes are a rather high rate. Though I will whine about government waste as well as the average citizen, it seems to me only appropriate that those of us who by a combination of luck and hard work have plenty of surplus dollars should be taxed at a rate higher than those who have less.

Staying on point, when I go to a camera shop I want to encounter a proud citizen or resident who pays his or her way, holds head high, and does the job well.

OhLook wrote in post #17286325
If you don't wish to support businesses with sleazy ethical practices, you'll have to avoid Amazon also. Word about their treatment of employees and competitors is getting out. The New Yorker did an exposé of Amazon a few weeks ago.

I couldn't care less about their business practices. That isn't why I try to avoid them. Business is survival of the fittest, just like natural selection. If the break the law, they'll eventually get busted. If what they do is legal, then unless the law changes, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Preeb wrote in post #17289296
I couldn't care less about their business practices. That isn't why I try to avoid them. Business is survival of the fittest, just like natural selection. If the break the law, they'll eventually get busted. If what they do is legal, then unless the law changes, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I said "ethical," not "legal." This would be a better society if individuals and businesses paid as much attention to ethics as they say they do to laws.

Amamba wrote in post #17287584
There's a problem with lack of relatively well paying jobs for people without desirable college degrees. This is a very real problem with really bad consequences. But even before this became a problem, someone without a degree had to have a marketable skill to make a decent wage. I don't believe a job flipping burghers at McDonalds or as a night security guard would ever make anyone anything but poor. There were jobs like die setter, tool maker, many low volume assembly line jobs that required skill and paid relatively well, these jobs are now gone.

Many of those jobs require extensive training. I was a machinist for 33 years. I worked through a 4 year apprenticeship in the 1970's to get my journeyman certification. Nowadays, most companies can't afford that investment, so they look for applicants who have experience, or have at least completed training at a vocational or 2 year trade college. Even then they will need additional specific training in the job required by the employer. Too many people think that such jobs are a snap, but they take a good skill set to do well. And they don't always pay as well as you might think. When I retired 7 years ago, I was still just at $12 per hour - not exactly wages that will make one wealthy. Competition for such jobs is fierce, so employers don't have to deal with training any more, they can hire people who already have training and experience.

Best recommendation for anyone who plans to skip college is to get that job flipping burgers, take a course at a trade school, then shop that diploma around. It still won't be easy, but at least you'll have something.

As far as camera shops go, I don't know where anyone goes to acquire that sort of expertise aside from working in a shop. If you can't get hired without the skills, and you can't get the skills without being hired, then catch 22 is going to kill the entire small shop industry. Eventually they will run out of knowledgeable workers.

Preeb wrote in post #17289326
Many of those jobs require extensive training. I was a machinist for 33 years. I worked through a 4 year apprenticeship in the 1970's to get my journeyman certification. Nowadays, most companies can't afford that investment, so they look for applicants who have experience, or have at least completed training at a vocational or 2 year trade college. Even then they will need additional specific training in the job required by the employer. Too many people think that such jobs are a snap, but they take a good skill set to do well. And they don't always pay as well as you might think. When I retired 7 years ago, I was still just at $12 per hour - not exactly wages that will make one wealthy. Competition for such jobs is fierce, so employers don't have to deal with training any more, they can hire people who already have training and experience.

Best recommendation for anyone who plans to skip college is to get that job flipping burgers, take a course at a trade school, then shop that diploma around. It still won't be easy, but at least you'll have something.

As far as camera shops go, I don't know where anyone goes to acquire that sort of expertise aside from working in a shop. If you can't get hired without the skills, and you can't get the skills without being hired, then catch 22 is going to kill the entire small shop industry. Eventually they will run out of knowledgeable workers.

Oh, I know it's not an easy job, and requires lots of skill, but at least when I was most exposed to this profession (early 90s) the die makers at the shop I worked at were making at least about $15-17/hr, not too bad for that time. The couple of most experienced guys were pulling more wages than most engineers did.

The problem is these jobs went away, at least a large percentage of them. Hard to compete with people in China working for weeks without seeing their families and being paid slave wages.

But on the other hand, someone on the radio today was lamenting the decline in the average wages of assembly line workers. It never made any sense to me why a person with very little education and no special skill whose job it is to drive four screws into a part every 60 seconds (and some can't even be trusted to do that simple task with consistent quality) should be making more per hour than a, say, CAD operator with a 2-year degree and a working knowledge of computers, sophisticated drafting software and basic understanding of engineering design. Same basic principle - someone without a special skill or education does not deserve a middle class lifestyle just because they think they do.

Anyway, going back to photography - why would a store want to hire knowledgeable staff when most people get their info via internet research ? I don't expect them to be experts, I just want them to be available, courteous, and at least somewhat efficient.