Is it any wonder shops are closing down...

JeffreyG wrote in post #17288880
No kidding. For one thing, I think these 'no score' leagues are close to a myth, or at least relegated to the really small kids like <7. I've never seen a group of 3rd graders (9 and 10 year old kids) that were not keeping score.'

I've never seen a "no score" game at any age, not in basketball, baseball, soccer, anything. And even 4-year-olds at our swim meets get timed down to the 100th of a second, same as their teammates who swim at state championship meets.

The officials don't put up with nonsense from parents, either.

Amamba wrote in post #17287082
What education did they have ? Did they go through high school working their rear off, or partying ? And what "academics" were they ? Psychology ? English ? Biology ? A person I know with a PhD in Computer Science is making 2 x what I make, and I am not complaining about my job.

How many people get degrees that are all but guaranteed them to be unemployed (at least in their field) ? Sure, psychology sounds very cool and all, but most end up at the car dealerships or as pharmacy techs.

How many people with engineering degrees are long time unemployed in an OK economy ? Some are doing great and some have to take contract positions that suck and require lots of travel, but most anyone who is any good can earn a living. Of course you have to study hard in school, memorizing and understanding the formulas that start on one page and end on another, there's a profound chick deficiency in classes you take. and then you're looking forward for a lifetime of working overtime and traveling to places most people would not look at twice.

People who have that attitude "I don't work well unless you pay me well" will be slacking off just as much in a $100k job as they do in a $40K job.

People with the right attitude may not get rich but they are more likely to be successful.

Case in point

Amamba wrote in post #17290085
Oh, I know it's not an easy job, and requires lots of skill, but at least when I was most exposed to this profession (early 90s) the die makers at the shop I worked at were making at least about $15-17/hr, not too bad for that time. The couple of most experienced guys were pulling more wages than most engineers did.

The problem is these jobs went away, at least a large percentage of them. Hard to compete with people in China working for weeks without seeing their families and being paid slave wages.

But on the other hand, someone on the radio today was lamenting the decline in the average wages of assembly line workers. It never made any sense to me why a person with very little education and no special skill whose job it is to drive four screws into a part every 60 seconds (and some can't even be trusted to do that simple task with consistent quality) should be making more per hour than a, say, CAD operator with a 2-year degree and a working knowledge of computers, sophisticated drafting software and basic understanding of engineering design. Same basic principle - someone without a special skill or education does not deserve a middle class lifestyle just because they think they do.

Anyway, going back to photography - why would a store want to hire knowledgeable staff when most people get their info via internet research ? I don't expect them to be experts, I just want them to be available, courteous, and at least somewhat efficient.

You say most of them went away - that must depend on where you are located. In Michigan, yeah, the problems with the automakers has extended to the support shops too. Then too, I'm one who believes that the unions actually committed suicide in many regions where they were strong enough to hold the companies and the customers up for ransom.

I was a union member most of my life, and I've seen first hand the damage that union stubbornness can do when they try to flex their muscles in the face of reality. I'm not going to get into a debate about unions, they sometimes serve a purpose, but like any other entity, there is danger when they get too powerful.

Companies farm out work when it's necessary for survival. Sometimes that is simply due to the local economic climate. I worked for a Colorado manufacturer that distributed its product globally, and we were the world leader in the field. Last time I ran into a friend who is still working there, they were still going strong, actually farming out some machine work to smaller local shops when they reach capacity in their own facility. They also have spare parts distribution centers overseas, and many (not all) of those spares are manufactured over there. If they can get quality parts at a reasonable price, then it makes sense to save the shipping costs. To my knowledge, all parts used and distributed in North America are made in the US.

So it is possible for a manufacturing business to thrive in the US, but it takes a good plan, good management, and dependable employees who buy into the business plan. Some industries have gone so far from the path that it's no longer possible to make that work. Others don't have the leverage necessary to survive heavy competition.

Small camera shops often can't possibly compete for prices on gear with a big internet warehouse supplier. They MUST offer quality services that can't be found online. The shop I'm most familiar with offers equipment repairs, camera and software instruction, photo outings, things that you can't get online. That leads to loyal customers who will pay a little more for a lens or body because those other services are important to them. If a shop is incapable of making such a commitment to it's customers for whatever reason, then they won't long survive in today's market.

JeffreyG wrote in post #17287456
Hmmm....no clear idea what to say here but this is kind of funny as contrasted with at least the theories of markets.

All consumers are supposed to be rational actors who seek out the best products at the best prices. Deliberately paying more for some community good is not rational, and supposedly bad for everyone. Only by relentless self interest can the free market make us all rich.

In other words.....no ideology can long survive when faced with reality.

Not true. Where did you ever learn that free markets make everyone rich? Free markets provide the best possible exchange between parties, but no one said all parties are rational.

What "ideology" would like to replace it with?

Amamba wrote in post #17285166
In retail, the shareholders are king. People on minimum wage are having their hours cut to say 6 hours a week to maintain profit margins for the wealthy shareholders. The taxpayers ( many on minimum wages too ) then pick up the bill to maintain a living wage for these people to eat. Is that a society people want to live in ?

And this is the root of the problem. The shareholder is #1, profits are #2 and #3, the customer is somewhere further down the line.

You don't get good customer service in a retail store because it's not a high priority for management. In order to properly serve every customer, they need to have ten well-trained employees working this shift - but it's much more profitable to only have three barely-trained employees working this shift. And those three employees have a checklist of tasks that they have to get done before the shift is over, and "provide good customer service" ain't on that list.

Source: 12 years working large-chain retail, as a store employee, as a store manager, and now as a financial/accounting analyst.

nathancarter wrote in post #17290278
And this is the root of the problem. The shareholder is #1, profits are #2 and #3, the customer is somewhere further down the line.

You don't get good customer service in a retail store because it's not a high priority for management. In order to properly serve every customer, they need to have ten well-trained employees working this shift - but it's much more profitable to only have three barely-trained employees working this shift. And those three employees have a checklist of tasks that they have to get done before the shift is over, and "provide good customer service" ain't on that list.

Source: 12 years working large-chain retail, as a store employee, as a store manager, and now as a financial/accounting analyst.

This wasn't my quote you quoted

But anyway... i disagree that it's more profitable to have fewer and less well trained employees, the problem is that corporations are driven by metrics and it's nearly impossible to measure the profits brought by return business due to customer satisfaction, it is however easy to measure money saved by cutting headcount cost. So, they cut costs and pat themselves on the back all the way down the drain.

The companies that figured out how to keep customers happy and coming back are generally doing just fine.

When making a purchase, especially a large purchase, I don't mind spending a bit more to go with a company that has good customer service - I consider that money well spent. I can't be the only one.

Preeb wrote in post #17290228
You say most of them went away - that must depend on where you are located. In Michigan, yeah, the problems with the automakers has extended to the support shops too. Then too, I'm one who believes that the unions actually committed suicide in many regions where they were strong enough to hold the companies and the customers up for ransom.

I was a union member most of my life, and I've seen first hand the damage that union stubbornness can do when they try to flex their muscles in the face of reality. I'm not going to get into a debate about unions, they sometimes serve a purpose, but like any other entity, there is danger when they get too powerful.

Companies farm out work when it's necessary for survival. Sometimes that is simply due to the local economic climate. I worked for a Colorado manufacturer that distributed its product globally, and we were the world leader in the field. Last time I ran into a friend who is still working there, they were still going strong, actually farming out some machine work to smaller local shops when they reach capacity in their own facility. They also have spare parts distribution centers overseas, and many (not all) of those spares are manufactured over there. If they can get quality parts at a reasonable price, then it makes sense to save the shipping costs. To my knowledge, all parts used and distributed in North America are made in the US.

So it is possible for a manufacturing business to thrive in the US, but it takes a good plan, good management, and dependable employees who buy into the business plan. Some industries have gone so far from the path that it's no longer possible to make that work. Others don't have the leverage necessary to survive heavy competition.

Small camera shops often can't possibly compete for prices on gear with a big internet warehouse supplier. They MUST offer quality services that can't be found online. The shop I'm most familiar with offers equipment repairs, camera and software instruction, photo outings, things that you can't get online. That leads to loyal customers who will pay a little more for a lens or body because those other services are important to them. If a shop is incapable of making such a commitment to it's customers for whatever reason, then they won't long survive in today's market.

This is a bit off topic, but after 20 years in the business, I came to realize that while the unions were responsible for much of the cost and quality issues, and IMHO did outlive their usefulness - at least in their current form, not in principle - it was the management that nearly drove the industry into the ground. Unions stole tens of millions, mismanagement cost billions. It wasn't the unions that in the early to mid 2000s, just as the cost of gas was skyrocketing, made decisions to heavily invest in trucks and SUVs while pretty much abandoning cars.

Willie wrote in post #17290219
Case in point

Exactly, she piled up $60K in student loans obtaining a degree that is virtually guaranteed to result in unemployment (unless you're either exceptionally good, extremely lucky, or very well connected) and now the society must fix this glaring injustice ?

A lot of Arts degrees have a silent "F" in front...

Amamba wrote in post #17290418
This wasn't my quote you quoted

Ha ha, oops, sorry. I had multi-quoted several posts, and then realized that all my responses weren't really worth arguing.

The fate of the "Sound Advice" electronics chain is one example of how corporate culture ruins ...well, everything. Except the executives' retirement plans, I'm sure those are just fine.

Amamba wrote in post #17290441
This is a bit off topic, but after 20 years in the business, I came to realize that while the unions were responsible for much of the cost and quality issues, and IMHO did outlive their usefulness - at least in their current form, not in principle - it was the management that nearly drove the industry into the ground. Unions stole tens of millions, mismanagement cost billions. It wasn't the unions that in the early to mid 2000s, just as the cost of gas was skyrocketing, made decisions to heavily invest in trucks and SUVs while pretty much abandoning cars.

Funny, 30 years ago I might have agreed, but here in Colorado, pickup trucks and SUVs rule supreme, even in Denver. Up in the mountains or out here in the plains, wind and snow can create driving problems even when there is no real weather system moving through. Having all wheel drive can literally be a life saver. When we moved here last summer, my wife and I both made the decision to forget the luxury sedans we were used to and go with the tool that is most appropriate to the location. Out here I see about one car for every 5 or 6 trucks or SUVs, and that may be a conservative number. I did buy American for the first time in more than 30 years, a Ford Edge. My wife has a Honda Ridgeline. She looked at every offering in the class and simply preferred what Honda offered.

Okay, enough with the OT stuff I guess. Back to camera shops.

Amamba wrote in post #17290453
Exactly, she piled up $60K in student loans obtaining a degree that is virtually guaranteed to result in unemployment (unless you're either exceptionally good, extremely lucky, or very well connected) and now the society must fix this glaring injustice ?

A lot of Arts degrees have a silent "F" in front...

I'll buy that. Just because a person has some aptitude or inclination toward the arts doesn't mean that it's a smart career path. Much more sensible to get a degree in business, then while working a reasonably paying job, pursue further education with evening or online classes. That way, you give yourself options.

Preeb wrote in post #17290524
Funny, 30 years ago I might have agreed, but here in Colorado, pickup trucks and SUVs rule supreme, even in Denver. Up in the mountains or out here in the plains, wind and snow can create driving problems even when there is no real weather system moving through. Having all wheel drive can literally be a life saver. .

I guess that is why someone who lives on the hills of San Francisco has to have a Hummer to overcome the driving problems caused by weather there.

Preeb wrote in post #17290531
Just because a person has some aptitude or inclination toward the arts doesn't mean that it's a smart career path. Much more sensible to get a degree in business, then while working a reasonably paying job, pursue further education with evening or online classes. That way, you give yourself options.

What if you have no interest in business and no talent for it? You might flunk out. If not, you'll certainly have to take jobs that bore you. If I'd had to major in business, I think I'd have decided to skip college entirely. I studied what I liked and then made do with the income I earned. Living frugally was no problem; I felt virtuous about it. I'd been raised that way, as my parents had been poor during the Depression and retained some of their habits. Save instead of spending, eat the leftovers, mend your socks, turn off the lights when you're not looking at anything. In general: live within your means.

There's nothing wrong with a modest lifestyle. It has a long and respectable history for artists and intellectuals. Middle-class expectations have swollen to include luxuries like new (and excessively large) cars and cable TV and electronic gadgets. One size of budget does not fit all. Let's not advise all kids to do the same thing--or, worse, force kids to do it--while ignoring who they are. Young single people can get by well enough without big salaries. Later, if supporting a family becomes important to them, they can reevaluate the options available at that time. Those options will surely differ from the ones available now. The job market is always changing.

OhLook wrote in post #17289325
I said "ethical," not "legal." This would be a better society if individuals and businesses paid as much attention to ethics as they say they do to laws.

Had to quote this, more people should think how their actions affect others. In Britain, the press is slowly 'outing' celebs who are using clever loop holes to hide their money from the taxman. Many of them are fantastically rich but still want more. This attitude is filtering down to the man in the street who view money as the answer to all their woes. Many school leavers go on to university to gain an 'average' degree. They then end up disillusioned working in dead end jobs like retail.

Too many people in this world think money is the route to happiness.............

As the song says: "Money makes the world go 'round...."