Strictly Serious Sport Shooting ?

Oh well.

I don't see how it was aggressive but as you've got your own way can we assume you're happy ?

I look forward to the return of Baseball-Cap wearing Corsa owners posting snapshots of their plastic-infested rot-boxes in the Sports forum, cos after all It's Sporty innit


Now, The Marketplace. ONLY FOR REGISTERED USERS.

A wee bit strident perhaps? How about we use a nice flowery font in case someone gets offended.

</sarcasm>

I don't see why this thread needs to continue.

Pekka changed the description - that should be the end of this issue.

With all due respect Tommy, a thread should end when people no longer have anything to say; unless you think that to let said thread continue will bring the forum in to disrepute. Perhaps continued discussion will convince me and Pekka that it was in fact better the way it was before, after all I wasn't a member when all the alleged abuse took place so I'm looking at the problem from the outside (as a newbie unaware of the previous problems).

Mick, I'm not sure there's a great deal left to discuss. There was an objection to the word serious, which has now been removed and so the issue is basically resolved. However, if you can think of a different word that better conveys the original intention, then we could start to have an interesting discussion.....

How about putting this on the end (No Baseball-Cap wearing Corsa owners posting snapshots of their plastic-infested rot-boxes in this Sports forum please) That should keep GSH happy and I certainly wouldn't be confused as to it's meaning Tee! Hee!

I think this matter is now delt with. Please move chats to chat forum.

After reading this thread, I just have this to say. It's unfortunate, but forum politics have completely taken over this forum. Politics have taken the fun out of what used to be one of the best forums on the web.

I understand that with more people comes the need for more moderators and stricter rules, but to what end? Eventually, when push comes to shove, we come to the question of the chicken before the egg.

For example...for someone to ask a serious question about sporting photography, they must have a sports photograph that they took to share with everyone else while asking their question. But, wait...what if they need that question answered before they can take their first sports photograph. But, without a photograph you can't ask the question. But, without an answer to the question, you can't take a photograph to share.

IMO, this is where the boards rules become far *too* tight. I am glad that the rules here are strict, and I'm glad that the mods work hard to keep the right posts in the right place. But...since when did forum politics become more important than fun on a forum like this?

There are forums out there that are EXTREMELY strict on how things are done, who can join, how posts are worded, how they are signed, etc. And, I'm afraid I see POTN headed in that direction. IMO, the staff needs to loosen up a bit...and let the users have a little fun. Just remember that you can't please everyone all the time. And, if someone is upset about a kids spoon race ending up in the sports section, then let them be upset. They'll get over it.

Edit: I've also noticed that the personal beliefs and opinions of some moderators play a large part in the decisions they make...making their judgement calls very subjective versus objective. While, in large part, I think the entire staff needs to loosen things up a little, I also believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If something is annoying a particular moderator and no one else, then don't bring it up. If a few users complain, we have a problem that needs to be dealt with. To the moderators...just please don't let your personal feelings cloud your judgement on what should be done versus what you want done. Seems to be happening too often.

Edit 2: I gotta admit...it's truly amazing how a thread like this one can make me so frustrated and so angry.

Edit 3: Let me say this, I believe in the owner of this message board and his ability to make the right decisions, and I believe in the senior moderating staff...those few that were the only moderators when I left this board for medical reasons back in Feb/March of last year. This is not the same board as it was a year ago. So, as a genuine request to Pekka and all the senior moderators, train your padawans well. They still have much to learn.

I do not forbid discussion in share forums. But as they are meant primarily for sharing photos, I would like to see some photos, too. We have talk about photography for general issues and general chat for just that. You can always PM me or mods to ask that the post is not moved for some reason.

Some rules we have are result of "handling the traffic". For example signature rules are purely for lessening the bandwith, making posts easier to read and reducing need to scroll pages a lot. We have spam rules with are very strict (and it seems to work), then we have image editing rules which are based on copyrights. Nothing is done just to "be bossy".

Many rules are there for occasional problem users - majority of users will never break them because they never run into conficts in real life either. And this is lot like real life: thousands of people from different parts of society and countries sharing a common interest.

There is much going on here, and the old time POTN fun is there - it may be more buried in threads but it is there and I endorse it and welcome light talk and enjoyment more that technical manual reading repetitions.

I should also be noted that way of reading and choosing what to read is very personal thing and personal mood will affect how your feel about it. One should not read the forums in mechanical manner just because "you have to" and it's not possible to read every post (about 4000 new posts a day). Buddy lists are a good tool to track personally interesting stuff, as are subscriptions.

Personally I think our moderators are doing great work as individuals and as a team: together we are learning this difficult task.

Unfortunately, Pekka, this is where you and I begin to disagree. I honestly believe we need discussion forums for each type of "share" forum. That way, you know you are asking the opinions of people who really care about that type of photography. For example, I won't name names, but I only see one professional glamour photographer that takes the time to answer questions in the sharing knowledge section under Talk About Photography. And, while I haven't browsed cornering the pros much recently, I don't remember seeing many...if any there.

My guess is that those particular professional photographers don't want to have to dig through 14 topics about sports, 12 topics about macro, 36 topics about weddings, etc...just to find a single topic about Glamour and answer the question at hand.

If there was a board dedicated to nothing but each individual type of photography, then I have a feeling we'd attract semi-pros and pros which usually don't have time to do much more than post in or comment on a few photos in the sharing sections.

And, I don't mind admitting that I know the signature rule section that you mentioned is directed toward me and a problem I had with that recently. I have drastically changed my signature in hopes that I won't offend anymore of the mods. I guess I needed the space, but wow does it look dull now. Plus, no one is going to look at my gear list if they have to do anything more than scan my sig to see it. While I agree wholeheartedly that my old sig was horrendous and far too long, the entire situation was handled incorrectly and has left a very sour taste in my mouth...esp when it comes to the younger less experienced mods.

And, I'm just not seeing the "fun" that used to be on this board...the joking...the just plain enjoyment of sharing each other's company and taking a look at the beautiful photography. Now, it seems so cut and dry...this has to go there, that has to go here, and you can't digress or make jokes anymore unless it's on the general chat forum. Granted, I may be seeing things from a much more cynical view...but this is what I'm seeing.

I'm glad that you have faith in your moderating staff. With you behind them, I'm sure they will one day become excellent moderators. But, again, they have a lot to learn and a long way to go yet. Your senior moderators are phenomenal as well as yourself at making the right decision based on the rules as well as intuition rather than personal feelings. This just needs to be passed on to your younger mods...and I'm sure they will learn in time.

To be absolutely honest, I don't come here out of a feeling of need to come here. I used to at one time...definitely...ba​ck before my anxiety problems were a little more controlled. But, not anymore. I come here to try to enjoy the company of others and discuss one of my absolute favorite hobbies. Unfortunately, it's becoming harder and harder each day to have fun as I see what I posted above become more and more true.

I just ask that politics be set aside in favor of letting people enjoy coming here. Threads don't always have to be moved just because they don't fit the cookie cutter nature of a given forum. Sometimes posting a topic with a different feel in a forum is a good thing...catch people flatfooted and make 'em think a little more before giving their pre-printed form-letter type responses of "use the search" or "look two threads down" etc.

We're human.

We're not perfect.

We're always learning.

From Pekka to the Senior and Junior Mods we all care about this place a great deal. I'd hate to add up all the hours we all put into this forum as it'd probably scare all of us.

We take this pretty seriously. There are times where discussions go into multiple(s) page(s) to discuss and decide how to proceed on many issues as we like to be sure we are fair and consistent as humanly possible. And no it does not always turn out how we'd like it to.

POTN is an evolving world. The increase in traffic even just recently is astounding and at times a bit overwhelming with 4K-plus posts a day and upwards of 1,000 people logged on at any one time.

POTN has changed over the three years I have been here. It can't help but change. We feel it's been for the positive and the traffic shows that too. Are we going to make everyone happy? Nope. Will some old members tire of the forums? Yep. It happens all the time.

I was a member of another very popular non-photography related forum for several years. Had well over 5,000 posts. Hard to tell if I outgrew the forum, or the forum outgrew me. However, things changed and it just wasn't floating my boat anymore. It happens. It's expected. People come and people go.

We have made mistakes. We will make mistakes. When we make mistakes we discuss them at length to determine what we did wrong and what we will do to prevent the same mistakes in the future.

We have mod rules too and make every attempt to follow them at all times so we are consistent and fair. Personally, for a bunch of volunteers, I think we do a damn good job. And we are a team. We make every attempt to be of one mind and one voice.

We also take serious suggestions seriously. Sometimes we act on them. Sometimes we don't. But, we do discuss them all.

Sometimes we just all need to give each other a break and remember the common ground that brings us here and get out and shoot some photos. Hard to find a better stress reliever than to get out and shoot the beauty that surrounds us and come back and share with our friends.

That's what we're here for...

I would say that's not a bad idea in principle. I admit however that I've seen alot more "look at my pictures and tell me where to improve" threads than "tell me how to make good pictures" because without an example, it really IS damn near impossible to tell someone what to improve. Photography manuals tend to be several hundred pages long because they try and address everything, trying to address everything because someone hasn't posted an example is just not worth doing.

For general tips like "I have a race tommorow, any pointers?" I have to be honest and say I've seen threads like those pop up now and again, and I've seen them stay in the "share photos" section where they got some answers and there was no problems.

And it might just be that most people don't really care about your gear list, so why shouldn't it be on a seperate link? If someone is really really amazed at a photo they may decide to click your signature and find out what you're using, but the idea of a gear list in a signature is superfluous and more often than not only something the person who owns the gear even cares about.

To this I say, politics only piss people off if they choose to follow them. I post my pictures, I read other people's picture threads, and I can't even name any moderators other than Belmondo (who I'm not even sure if he IS a moderator now that I think about it) and I'm happy with it. If you're here to post pictures and enjoy photography, then focus on that. The boards may not be run exactly how you like, but they aren't run badly either and if you just focus on what you came here for, you likely aren't going to find much to be upset about.

Tell me this, then. Say you had a daily driver Honda Accord and a Dodge Viper GTR that you use as a weekend driver, have fun kinda car. Would you drive the Honda Accord all the time and leave the Viper sitting in your driveway just hoping that someone drives by, sees it, and says, "Wow, now that's a nice car." Of course you wouldn't...none of us would. We'd be out showing that thing off. Well, when it comes to message boards, there's really no other way to show off equipment than with gear lists. And, leaving mine in a link is like leaving the Viper in a garage literally all the time.

Granted, the real proof is in the image, and I cannot deny that in the slightest bit. But, it's nice to be able to show your gear from time to time...to be proud of what you've been able to acquire.

Unfortunately, politics are something we all live by on this board whether we like to admit to it or not. They are there, they are present, and they do make an impact on you whether you choose to see it or not. I'm glad that you feel you are able to participate in this board even with all the politics in place. Unfortuantely, I think we all get fed up at one time or another when politics, bureaucracy, and rules get in the way of just having fun...esp when that fun is harming no one else and causing no problems to anyone on a given forum. To finish up this particular point, here, I go back to the original poster's points...all of them. He makes very good ones.

IMO, we should be able to ask other sports photographers what they deem is appropriate for the board they post on. Do you really think that many of the photographers in the sports section of share photos make their way down to this forum to answer posts like this? The answer is a plain and simple, no...no grey area in this one.

Why was my post removed?

Read your PM.

Here, here

---- Gavin