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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 31 Oct 2014 (Friday) 23:42
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How real and reliable are DXOmark scores?

 
Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 18:55 |  #16
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sega62 wrote in post #17247896 (external link)
Dont pay any attention to Dxo, even dpreview that goes hands in hands,
If i were you, check some pictures of the model you like on flickr, or forums.
Some of these guys are way better than these so called expert.
Good luck

Trouble with checking out finished images is they are quite often heavily processed which says more about the photographers post processing skills than it does about the cameras abilities.

I'd rather look at detailed tests and make up my own mind from the details rather than some photographers post processing skills. The DXO detailed charts are very informative and revealing...just don't pay any attention to their final score.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 18:57 |  #17
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snake0ape wrote in post #17248023 (external link)
For Dxo, it's only useful if you know what information to look for. But dxo single number ratings are very misleading and a big dis-service to the average consumer.

Unfortunately, the average consumer is too lazy to dig deep into DXO or even Dpreview to see how the tests are actually carried out and what they actually mean. The average consumer wants everything to be summarized into one number...this is what DXO is trying to do.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 18:59 |  #18
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Nethawked wrote in post #17248335 (external link)
There are those who peer at specs and hope the best makes their photographs better, and there are photographers who work hard at their craft. DXO is quoted and relied upon most by the former, and used as a casual reference by the latter.

And you know this how?

I look at DXO and I can tell you I work hard at my photographer craft...so your summarized non-sense is very wrong.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 19:00 |  #19
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timbop wrote in post #17248365 (external link)
DXO has a formula that calculates metrics that the guys at DXO find incredibly important - because they have a way to objectively measure it. Just because there is an objective way to measure something doesn't mean that measurement has value. DR is a perfect example; the range represents a maximal value at native sensor level - as soon as you start playing with contrast or curves then you change the actual tonal range in the image.

Relying on the DXO score is like deciding on a car based on horsepower at the red line, wheelbase and number of gears in the transmission.

I find the detailed measurements at DXO prove out in real world shooting. I sure get much more DR with my A7R than I do with my 5D2...and this is shown to be true in the DXO DR detailed charts.




  
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BigAl007
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Nov 02, 2014 19:53 |  #20

As well as camera body tests I have issues with their lens tests. All of DXO's lens tests are carried out while mounted to a camera. This is because DXO a really only testing them to obtain the information that they need to produce their processing software. If you want to actually compare different lenses then you need to actually test the lens, not the lens a camera system. Many of the magazines had testing labs with the means to actually test the lenses true resolution and things like MTF's, but compared to the systems that DXO use they are expensive, and of course DXO seems to give away their results, so nobody seems to use dedicated optical test benches any more to test lenses.

There does seem to be on ray of light though. lensrentals now have the ability to test lenses optical characteristics independently of a camera. So now they will truly be able to test the difference between Canon and Nikon lenses, in ways that DXO simply cannot. It will be interesting to see the absolute results for tests between some of the latest lenses that do not rely on camera performance. As it is now the manufacturer with the highest resolution camera will always have the highest resolution lenses.

The other thing that testing lenses independently of camera bodies will allow is a true assessment of the effect the sensor is having on the image that is projected by the lens.

Alan


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AJSJones
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Nov 02, 2014 20:17 |  #21

Single DxO marks are like taking mpg, 0-60, trunk space, headroom and number of cylinders and cupholders and combining them into one rating for a car.
The individual data can be very useful if you know how to find it and how to interpret it. If you know what MTF stands for, you may be in that group:D If you can't do that, then it's useless to you:D If not, then "perceived megapixels" may be a more accessible number to track - it will depend on both the sensor and the lens used - that's why they report combo data. If you are into assessing dynamic range at different ISOs, the DxO data can be reprocessed to provide direct information (external link), rather than indirect in some of the DxO plots


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kcbrown
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Nov 02, 2014 20:39 |  #22

JeffreyG wrote in post #17247782 (external link)
DxO objectively measures certain performance parameters of camera sensors and their objective measurements are quite reliable. The problem is, what they are measuring may or may not be of interest to you for what you shoot.

First off, note that DxO does not have an effective way to normalize their ratings between sensors of different sizes, or of different pixel densities. So the less alike any two sensors you compare the less comparable the ratings will be.

Well, yes, actually they do.

The measurements generally have two different categories, "print" and "screen". The latter is the pixel-peeper measurement that will be highly dependent on sensor resolution and size. The former is the "normalized" value you're looking for, and is really what you want to be using when comparing two different sensors, as it reflects what happens when you size the image to a fixed target (8 megapixels is what DxO uses).

There is even more detail to this if you are really interested, but I don't know how much of a digression you want here. But take this as an example. Canon and Nikon (Sony) sensors have about the same DR at high ISO levels. So if you shoot action in low light as I do, the sensors have about the same DR. But at low ISO, the Sony sensor has a much broader DR than the Canon sensor. So a landscape photographer would regard the Sony sensor as a lot better for DR and would see that reflected in the DxO rating. A sports shooter would find no real difference and would wonder why the ratings were not the same.

This is exactly why you want to be looking at the actual measurements, and not just the scores. The scores reflect someone else's view of the importance of the various measurements. But each person has their own set of priorities. The only way they can accurately use DxO's findings is to examine the measurements for themselves.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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kcbrown
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Nov 02, 2014 20:50 |  #23

timbop wrote in post #17248365 (external link)
DXO has a formula that calculates metrics that the guys at DXO find incredibly important - because they have a way to objectively measure it. Just because there is an objective way to measure something doesn't mean that measurement has value. DR is a perfect example; the range represents a maximal value at native sensor level - as soon as you start playing with contrast or curves then you change the actual tonal range in the image.

DR tells you how much latitude you have to work with when you start playing with curves. The number used by DxO in its scores is at base ISO. Fortunately, they also measure DR at various ISOs so you can see for yourself how much you'd have to work with at any given ISO for a given camera.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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timbop
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Nov 02, 2014 20:53 |  #24

Hogloff wrote in post #17248460 (external link)
I find the detailed measurements at DXO prove out in real world shooting. I sure get much more DR with my A7R than I do with my 5D2...and this is shown to be true in the DXO DR detailed charts.

Sure, but I doubt the majority of photographers consider DR to be in the top 3 specifications, and certainly wouldn't weigh it as 33% of the overall score of a camera. I know I personally get by pretty well with the amount of dynamic range I get in my shots.


Current: 5DM3, 6D, 8mm fish, 24-105/4IS, 35/2IS, 70-200/2.8IS, 85/1.8, 100-400/IS v1, lensbaby composer with edge 80, 580's and AB800's
Formerly: 80D, 7D, 300D, 5D, 5DM2, 20D, 50D, 1DM2, 17-55IS, 24-70/2.8, 28-135IS, 40/2.8, 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 70-200/4IS, 70-300IS, 70-200/2.8, 100 macro, 400/5.6, tammy 17-50 and 28-75, sigma 50 macro & 100-300

  
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Nov 02, 2014 20:57 |  #25

kcbrown wrote in post #17248647 (external link)
DR tells you how much latitude you have to work with when you start playing with curves. The number used by DxO in its scores is at base ISO. Fortunately, they also measure DR at various ISOs so you can see for yourself how much you'd have to work with at any given ISO for a given camera.

Yes, I get that - but I don't find the DR I get in my shots to be a limiting factor for me. Noise handling, AF, sharpness, etc are more important to me; the DR I get is sufficient.


Current: 5DM3, 6D, 8mm fish, 24-105/4IS, 35/2IS, 70-200/2.8IS, 85/1.8, 100-400/IS v1, lensbaby composer with edge 80, 580's and AB800's
Formerly: 80D, 7D, 300D, 5D, 5DM2, 20D, 50D, 1DM2, 17-55IS, 24-70/2.8, 28-135IS, 40/2.8, 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 70-200/4IS, 70-300IS, 70-200/2.8, 100 macro, 400/5.6, tammy 17-50 and 28-75, sigma 50 macro & 100-300

  
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Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 21:11 |  #26
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timbop wrote in post #17248656 (external link)
Sure, but I doubt the majority of photographers consider DR to be in the top 3 specifications, and certainly wouldn't weigh it as 33% of the overall score of a camera. I know I personally get by pretty well with the amount of dynamic range I get in my shots.

Just ignore their score and look at the details that count for you. If DR is not important for you...then don't look at those measurements. Their individual tests are very well done, just ignore the final score.




  
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Nov 02, 2014 21:42 |  #27

Hogloff wrote in post #17248692 (external link)
Just ignore their score and look at the details that count for you. If DR is not important for you...then don't look at those measurements. Their individual tests are very well done, just ignore the final score.

Oh, I ignore all their scores. But for the OP, he needs to be aware that arbitrarily manufacturing a formula is not the same thing as providing useful data.


Current: 5DM3, 6D, 8mm fish, 24-105/4IS, 35/2IS, 70-200/2.8IS, 85/1.8, 100-400/IS v1, lensbaby composer with edge 80, 580's and AB800's
Formerly: 80D, 7D, 300D, 5D, 5DM2, 20D, 50D, 1DM2, 17-55IS, 24-70/2.8, 28-135IS, 40/2.8, 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 70-200/4IS, 70-300IS, 70-200/2.8, 100 macro, 400/5.6, tammy 17-50 and 28-75, sigma 50 macro & 100-300

  
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Hogloff
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Nov 02, 2014 21:53 |  #28
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timbop wrote in post #17248729 (external link)
Oh, I ignore all their scores. But for the OP, he needs to be aware that arbitrarily manufacturing a formula is not the same thing as providing useful data.

That's why it's better to educate others how to use the DXO data, which is very thorough...rather than dismissing it because of their rating system.

I see many people just totally dismiss the DXO tests because of their scoring...these people miss some valid data.




  
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Charlie
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Nov 02, 2014 22:05 |  #29

BigAl007 wrote in post #17248552 (external link)
As well as camera body tests I have issues with their lens tests. All of DXO's lens tests are carried out while mounted to a camera. This is because DXO a really only testing them to obtain the information that they need to produce their processing software. If you want to actually compare different lenses then you need to actually test the lens, not the lens a camera system. Many of the magazines had testing labs with the means to actually test the lenses true resolution and things like MTF's, but compared to the systems that DXO use they are expensive, and of course DXO seems to give away their results, so nobody seems to use dedicated optical test benches any more to test lenses.

There does seem to be on ray of light though. lensrentals now have the ability to test lenses optical characteristics independently of a camera. So now they will truly be able to test the difference between Canon and Nikon lenses, in ways that DXO simply cannot. It will be interesting to see the absolute results for tests between some of the latest lenses that do not rely on camera performance. As it is now the manufacturer with the highest resolution camera will always have the highest resolution lenses.

The other thing that testing lenses independently of camera bodies will allow is a true assessment of the effect the sensor is having on the image that is projected by the lens.

Alan

Disagree, since optical tests are not practical. A lens can have super optics at infinity, but what if it has field curvature? Pure optics don't translate to a body lens combo. What good are optics claims if you can't realize the claims?

Do is more practical the way it is, I rather it stay that way. Would be nice if they had time for adapted lens tests as well.


Sony A7siii/A7iii/ZV-1 - FE 24/1.4 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 - 28-200 RXD
Panasonic G9 - Laowa 7.5/2 - PL 15/1.7 - P 42.5/1.8 - OM 75/1.8 - PL 10-25/1.7 - P 12-32 - P 14-140

  
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timbop
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Nov 02, 2014 22:43 |  #30

Hogloff wrote in post #17248748 (external link)
That's why it's better to educate others how to use the DXO data, which is very thorough...rather than dismissing it because of their rating system.

I see many people just totally dismiss the DXO tests because of their scoring...these people miss some valid data.

Well, when I first got back into photography in the digital age I used to put a lot of stock in metrics sites like DXO and photozone. However, I also did research by renting lenses and reading reviews like the digital picture, as well as looking at shots taken by the really good photographers here and on other forums as well. What I realized was that statistically significant differences in the "measurement-intensive" sites were often imperceptable looking at real images. In real world images, things like lighting, movement, focus accuracy, technique - those made a much bigger difference in image quality than some characteristic only visible at 100% after pushing 2 stops.


Current: 5DM3, 6D, 8mm fish, 24-105/4IS, 35/2IS, 70-200/2.8IS, 85/1.8, 100-400/IS v1, lensbaby composer with edge 80, 580's and AB800's
Formerly: 80D, 7D, 300D, 5D, 5DM2, 20D, 50D, 1DM2, 17-55IS, 24-70/2.8, 28-135IS, 40/2.8, 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 70-200/4IS, 70-300IS, 70-200/2.8, 100 macro, 400/5.6, tammy 17-50 and 28-75, sigma 50 macro & 100-300

  
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How real and reliable are DXOmark scores?
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