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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 31 Oct 2014 (Friday) 23:42
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How real and reliable are DXOmark scores?

 
sega62
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Nov 03, 2014 07:52 |  #46

Hogloff wrote in post #17249231 (external link)
No...but maybe the talented photographer studied sites like DXO before making his buying decisions...leading to great photos.

Hmmmm,

I think great photos were alive before Dxo.
Great photographers existed before Dxo.
If you mean digital, well i could understand, but its not everybody that would consider Dxo as a choice for a camera.
Like i said, DR is one value in the whole process of buying, i prefer a good autofocus, accurate color tone, and a well designed camera.
And no camera has all these features that would make em perfect, sorry




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 03, 2014 08:04 |  #47
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sega62 wrote in post #17249276 (external link)
Hmmmm,

I think great photos were alive before Dxo.
Great photographers existed before Dxo.
If you mean digital, well i could understand, but its not everybody that would consider Dxo as a choice for a camera.
Like i said, DR is one value in the whole process of buying, i prefer a good autofocus, accurate color tone, and a well designed camera.
And no camera has all these features that would make em perfect, sorry

Well DXO just doesn't measure DR...have you ever taken the time to truly understand what they do?

The rest of your post...I don't understand. Yes great photographers existed 80 years ago. Do you think these great photographers just went into a camera store and randomly chose a camera, or do you think they researched the cameras that existed and picked one that met their needs?

DXO is just one of many research sites. It has great tests that you can use in your camera evaluations.




  
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Keyan
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Nov 03, 2014 08:13 |  #48

Benchmark tests are just that - benchmark tests. No Photographer has ever made a dime from a client off of shots from a testing grid. For some, there are certain features that are critical to making the images they want - it could be DR, or ISO performance, and those benchmarks carry a lot of weight. For others, those are important but they may have a bunch of lenses, or are more familiar with the ergonomics, or they are looking for other features to help them make the best images they can. It is one input in a long list when it comes to choosing a camera and at the end of the day you will end up with the tool that YOU like the most and will help you reach your goals for your photography. No one should put you down because of the choice you made, or because your budget wasn't as big as the next guy a house over, people who do that aren't worth your time worrying about.


Cameras: 7D2, S100
Lenses: 17-55 f/2.8 IS USM, 18-135 STM, 24-70 f/4L IS USM, 50 f/1.4 USM,70-300L IS USM
Other Stuff: 430 EX II, Luma Labs Loop 3, CamRanger

  
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Twister286
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Nov 03, 2014 08:19 |  #49

hollis_f wrote in post #17249148 (external link)
Oooh, do you have a link? That would be wonderfully amusing.

There was a discussion a while ago here (external link) that discussed this...

Since then the results have been updated with different bodies, but there are other aberrations as well...apparently they also rated the 70-200/2.8 Mk II lower than the Mk I...


50D | 430EX-II
EF 24-70 f/2.8L II | EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II | EF 24-105 f/4L IS | EF 50mm f/1.8 II | EF-S 18-55 IS

  
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Canon_Lover
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Nov 03, 2014 08:32 as a reply to  @ Twister286's post |  #50

A sensor with a score of 98 should produce vastly better results than a sensor scored at 80, based on their website.

We should easily be able to pull up 100 photo from one brand and another and see this huge difference!

*crickets chirping*

Yeah, that's what I thought. :lol:

---------------

If a consumer is stupid enough to dump thousands of dollars switching brands because of a DXO score, then they deserve to spend thousands of dollars not improving their photography much if at all. :lol:

The internet has done a marvelous job at driving fear into photographer's mind. People seriously believe Canon sensors are so bad that even touching the shadow slider will result in a ruined photo. People are even using patchwork systems with lens adapters on mirrorless cameras because of a fear that they can't do photography without extra DR. Then when they do get a camera with added DR, they don't process the file as two files as it should be, and instead smash on the highlight and shadow sliders and in result end up with a worse result than anything before. :lol:

---------------

This is just another extreme fad like the AFMA craze that happened several years ago. People who's lenses and cameras were focusing just fine, were worried that their camera might some day go out of alignment and all their photography would be halted. No person in the history of the universe has ever made a photo using manual focus either. ;)
Now that Canon has the BEST AFMA in their newest cameras, no one cares. I just hope the DR fear fad goes away soon. It's seriously annoying.




  
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sega62
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Nov 03, 2014 08:32 |  #51

Hogloff wrote in post #17249293 (external link)
Well DXO just doesn't measure DR...have you ever taken the time to truly understand what they do?

The rest of your post...I don't understand. Yes great photographers existed 80 years ago. Do you think these great photographers just went into a camera store and randomly chose a camera, or do you think they researched the cameras that existed and picked one that met their needs?

DXO is just one of many research sites. It has great tests that you can use in your camera evaluations.


I have a imac, and when i compare pictures from my friends camera, i see no difference at all.
Maybe i'm getting blind.maybe there is.
If there was a major difference people would see the result, so far ive seen good technique and great lenses making a difference and PP.
Might go see a eye doctor soon :rolleyes:
Maybe i should try other camera apart from my canon 6D and Fuji Xe2.
By the way i have finally been using raw with my Fuji xe2, i see a big difference in overall quality of the photo, specially in PP.
Very nice camera and lens the 18-55




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 03, 2014 08:39 |  #52
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sega62 wrote in post #17249343 (external link)
I have a imac, and when i compare pictures from my friends camera, i see no difference at all.
Maybe i'm getting blind.maybe there is.
If there was a major difference people would see the result, so far ive seen good technique and great lenses making a difference and PP.
Might go see a eye doctor soon :rolleyes:
Maybe i should try other camera apart from my canon 6D and Fuji Xe2.
By the way i have finally been using raw with my Fuji xe2, i see a big difference in overall quality of the photo, specially in PP.
Very nice camera and lens the 18-55

Depends what you shoot. If you shoot conditions that have a high dynamic range like say a rainforest with light shining through it...then the Sony sensor will show a difference in the end.

If you print large detailed photos, then the extra pixels of the A7R will show you a difference in the print.

If you just view images on your laptop, then just about any camera in the last 10 years will do.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 03, 2014 08:45 |  #53
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Canon_Lover wrote in post #17249341 (external link)
A sensor with a score of 98 should produce vastly better results than a sensor scored at 80, based on their website.

We should easily be able to pull up 100 photo from one brand and another and see this huge difference!

*crickets chirping*

Yeah, that's what I thought. :lol:

---------------

If a consumer is stupid enough to dump thousands of dollars switching brands because of a DXO score, then they deserve to spend thousands of dollars not improving their photography much if at all. :lol:

The internet has done a marvelous job at driving fear into photographer's mind. People seriously believe Canon sensors are so bad that even touching the shadow slider will result in a ruined photo. People are even using patchwork systems with lens adapters on mirrorless cameras because of a fear that they can't do photography without extra DR. Then when they do get a camera with added DR, they don't process the file as two files as it should be, and instead smash on the highlight and shadow sliders and in result end up with a worse result than anything before. :lol:

---------------

This is just another extreme fad like the AFMA craze that happened several years ago. People who's lenses and cameras were focusing just fine, were worried that their camera might some day go out of alignment and all their photography would be halted. No person in the history of the universe has ever made a photo using manual focus either. ;)
Now that Canon has the BEST AFMA in their newest cameras, no one cares. I just hope the DR fear fad goes away soon. It's seriously annoying.

If you want to see what a camera like the A7R can produce in print, you are very welcome to come over and see some large prints. Or better yet, go visit the many homes that have those same prints hanging over their couches in their own homes.

If you want to view the differences on uncalibrated monitors...then good luck.

Have you ever looked at all the great sites that show how easy it is to pull out dark muddy shadows from a Sony sensor? Have you ever seen some of the unbelievable interior photos showing the bright outdoors without blowing out the outdoors?

Unless you have been living in a cave these past couple years or are just ignoring the facts hoping they will just go away...it is very hard to see the Sony sensor had much more latitude with exposure at the lower ISO range.




  
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Canon_Lover
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Nov 03, 2014 08:46 |  #54

Hogloff wrote in post #17249359 (external link)
Depends what you shoot. If you shoot conditions that have a high dynamic range like say a rainforest with light shining through it...then the Sony sensor will show a difference in the end.

If you print large detailed photos, then the extra pixels of the A7R will show you a difference in the print.

If you just view images on your laptop, then just about any camera in the last 10 years will do.

OK, no offense intended, but I have to call you out here.

Bracketing and stitching are stupidly easy to do these days. If you can't make a shot in a rainforest look good on either system, then you just suck as a photographer. Get rid of the damn crutch attitude and man-up. I shoot in rainforests quite often and never once did I have to bracket with a Canon sensor, so WTF?

Sorry, I never like telling anyone they suck at something, but I am sick of reading this same lame argument from you over and over again.

Sorry for yelling, and being a jerk, just this just has to stop. :D




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 03, 2014 08:54 |  #55
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Canon_Lover wrote in post #17249370 (external link)
OK, no offense intended, but I have to call you out here.

Bracketing and stitching are stupidly easy to do these days. If you can't make a shot in a rainforest look good on either system, then you just suck as a photographer. Get rid of the damn crutch attitude and man-up. I shoot in rainforests quite often and never once did I have to bracket with a Canon sensor, so WTF?

Sorry, I never like telling anyone they suck at something, but I am sick of reading this same lame argument from you over and over again.

Sorry for yelling, and being a jerk, just this just has to stop. :D

Sure I can bracket until I can't when there is a wind and blows those flimsy ferns all over the place. Strike one.

Sure I can stitch but that city scene just does not want to sit still for sone reason. Strike two.

Sure I can use GND filters but those mountain peaks that stick out into that bright sunrise just turn black with the filter. Strike three.

I can continue. These are all crutches to get around a system which is not as capable of another system. Don't get me wrong, I've shot many years with the 5d2 and have used many different techniques to work around it's limitations, but have on many occasions come home disappointed because these techniques did not work.

With the A7R, I come home with more keepers and am able to print more larger photos that I was using my 5D2.

Oh...and by the way I am getting tired of you and people like you down playing how much a camera like the A7R can improve one's images. It does get a little tiring hearing the fanboism from the likes of you...rather than having an educated discussion without having to somehow defend ones purchases.




  
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sega62
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Nov 03, 2014 09:35 |  #56

Hogloff wrote in post #17249381 (external link)
Sure I can bracket until I can't when there is a wind and blows those flimsy ferns all over the place. Strike one.

Oh...and by the way I am getting tired of you and people like you down playing how much a camera like the A7R can improve one's images. It does get a little tiring hearing the fanboism from the likes of you...rather than having an educated discussion without having to somehow defend ones purchases.

I dont think that people are doing it on purpose, its more of a certain limitation vs some needs.
There is no attack from me, if you are happy with sony, i am sure its great for your work.
One day i will get another camera, dont know if it will be a nikon or sony a7rs....




  
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elitejp
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Nov 03, 2014 09:52 as a reply to  @ sega62's post |  #57

there is a thread going on in the rumors section about what feature/s do you want to see in the 5d4 and so far the consensus is higher dr and resolution. Basically what Nikon is currently offering. I personally wont recommend canon until they can at least catch up with what sony and nikon are doing. however if you are already with canon just enjoy your shooting and try not to examine other brands too much


6D; canon 85mm 1.8, Tamron 24-70mm VC, Canon 135L Canon 70-200L is ii

  
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GregDunn
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Nov 03, 2014 09:56 |  #58

Canon_Lover wrote in post #17249341 (external link)
The internet has done a marvelous job at driving fear into photographer's mind.

So has this forum - or some participants anyway. People would rather jump systems and re-acquire thousands of dollars of new lenses rather than strive to improve their work through understanding and vision. I stopped participating in all the fear-mongering a long time ago; but then, camera improvement has leveled off quite noticeably in the last 3-4 years, so after catching up to the curve, I know I need to spend more time improving my craft and less time eyeing specs.

Canon_Lover wrote in post #17249341 (external link)
This is just another extreme fad like the AFMA craze that happened several years ago. People who's lenses and cameras were focusing just fine, were worried that their camera might some day go out of alignment and all their photography would be halted. No person in the history of the universe has ever made a photo using manual focus either. ;)
Now that Canon has the BEST AFMA in their newest cameras, no one cares. I just hope the DR fear fad goes away soon. It's seriously annoying.

The AFMA issue is a real one that has been blown out of proportion by a number of people. There is no doubt that if your lens is working properly but you're getting consistent focus errors, there are two options left: camera adjustment (MA, AF cases) or user training. It's very difficult to get AI Servo to do exactly what you want, except by learning the system and adjusting your technique and your camera so they are on the same page. I do a lot of sports and it's tricky at first. But once I was sure I was using AF correctly, MA did eliminate the consistent focus errors I was seeing. And that's what it should be: the last step for homing in on the results you want.

DR is a non-issue for the vast majority of users. As you say, no one ever used manual focus - or film (DR far, far less than any current digital sensor) to create a spectacular photo. :rolleyes: :)


Canon 1Dx | 5D3 | 7D2 | 6D | 70-200L f/2.8IS | 70-200L f/4 | 24-70L f/2.8 | 24-105L f/4IS | 100-400L f/4.5-5.6IS | 17-55 f/2.8IS | 50 f/1.8 | 28-105 f/3.5-4.5 | 4x Godox AD360

  
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elitejp
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Nov 03, 2014 10:05 |  #59

Canon_Lover wrote in post #17249341 (external link)
People are even using patchwork systems with lens adapters on mirrorless cameras because of a fear that they can't do photography without extra DR.

i wouldnt say they are afraid. I actually like hearing what canon users are saying about the sony a7 series. Most seem to be pretty impressed with it but have also stated that for action work they still shoot with a canon body. that shouldnt surprise anyone though that canon glass on a sony body cant keep up like canon on canon. I just dont see how more dr can be a bad thing. i may not need it on every shot but at least its there when i do.


6D; canon 85mm 1.8, Tamron 24-70mm VC, Canon 135L Canon 70-200L is ii

  
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gabebalazs
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Nov 03, 2014 10:49 |  #60

This thread is slowly starting to turn into one of those many other threads where people argue and try to convince the others that body X is better than body Y mostly based on what they use it for.

Why can't we just let go and stop fighting. Different photographers look for different things in a camera. That's why the way we interpret DxO scores, especially the various individual measurements, matters more than the overall score.

For serious landscape photographers like Hogloff, the A7R, or a Nikon D810 is a much better fit. They need DR at low ISO, along with high MP. They don't care that at higher ISOs there is no difference in DR (some Canon bodies e.g. 6D may even pull ahead slightly). They have all the right to defend their choice of camera for their own use. No argument there. And that's when DxO scores are useful. They know exactly what they're looking for, look up the relevant measurements, and it helps them make a decision.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'd go out and shoot a low-light fast paced wedding reception with his A7R. My needs and priorities are completely different from his. I look up DxO, see low ISO DR and I'm not concerned about it, I don't really care. What I do care about is that my 5D3 is better suited for what I use it for than an A7R; AF, lenses, ergonomics for my hand, all make up a better system while providing a very good performance at higher ISOs where I usually shoot at, so DR at low ISOs does not concern me.

So basically, just like it has been mentioned in this thread, you need to be able to read between the lines, and analyze the measurements that's relevant to your needs. So in that sense DxO is useful.

However, I do have problem with the final overall score, or I should say how it is interpreted in the internet, especially by those who don't know what it means and how it is calculated.

Just like the car analogy, you can't really give purchasing advice to someone based on the overall DxO score, especially if you don't know what the potential purchaser shoots or wants in a camera. Same with cars. How do you recommend a car based on one overall score to someone when you don't even know what he/she is looking for in a car? Soccer mom? Single guy? An outdoorsy couple who likes to camp? All different needs, one overall score for each car in a car comparison test is not going to help them much, they need details.


SONY A7RIII | SONY A7III | SONY RX10 IV | SONY RX100 | 24-70 2.8 GM | 70-200 2.8 GM | 16-35 F/4 | PZ 18-105 F/4 | FE 85 1.8 | FE 28-70 | SIGMA 35 1.4 ART | SIGMA 150-600 C | ROKINON 14 2.8
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How real and reliable are DXOmark scores?
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