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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 11 Nov 2014 (Tuesday) 05:29
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:03 |  #61

CanonPaperboy wrote in post #17270309 (external link)
I'll take "Dodging the question" for $100 Alex

Your questions weren't directed towards me, so not sure how this logically follows.....


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:10 |  #62
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idkdc wrote in post #17270180 (external link)
I count sorority chicks well within the realm of general public that camera companies target. Rebel T4i or SL1 with 18-55mm IS STM is good enough for that crowd, and if I just shot landscapes and still-moving targets on a tripod, I'd take it over a better sensor and a lower resolution lens.

Who in their right mind would buy a camera with a leading edge sensor and put a poor lens on it. Do you understand the crowd you are talking to in these forms...we are typically advanced shooters who quite often push the limits of their gear...not someone taking snapshots with auto everything enabled.

Of course with my great camera I use top notch glass...not doing so is totally stupid.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:13 |  #63
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idkdc wrote in post #17270185 (external link)
Correlation does not mean documentation. You are appealing to ignorance here (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

No...I am talking about actual experience with the gear you seem to be dreaming about. Have you shot anything extensive with the sony sensor camerras? Have you even shot 1 single image with them.

From my actual usage of the gear you question...I say the DXO DR tests stack up in line with what I've actually seen in my images. You seem to like to armchair quarterback and criticize without going through the work yourself.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:14 |  #64

Hogloff wrote in post #17270326 (external link)
Who in their right mind would buy a camera with a leading edge sensor and put a poor lens on it. Do you understand the crowd you are talking to in these forms...we are typically advanced shooters who quite often push the limits of their gear...not someone taking snapshots with auto everything enabled.

Of course with my great camera I use top notch glass...not doing so is totally stupid.

Eh, we just went from redefining of general public from the vague to cell phone users to targeted by camera companies to advanced shooters who push the limits of their gear. I think we're all talking about different target audiences here. No need to shove your interpretation on everyone else's. I am talking about the camera company's bread and butter, the general public as defined as the camera company customers, which has nothing to do with advanced or entry-level skill.


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:17 |  #65
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idkdc wrote in post #17270334 (external link)
Eh, we just went from redefining of general public from the vague to cell phone users to targeted by camera companies to advanced shooters who push the limits of their gear. I think we're all talking about different target audiences here. No need to shove your interpretation on everyone else's. I am talking about the camera company's bread and butter, the general public as defined as the camera company customers, which has nothing to do with advanced or entry-level skill.

And what does that have to do with the validity of DXO testing...the general public does not care...the general public uses cell phones...this website is not targeted at the general public...this website contains many advanced users who do research into their gear and one of those site visited by many is DXO to review their detailed tests.

THATS MY POINT...who gives a hoot about the general public and if Canon wants to target them. McDonalds targets the general public and I stay clear of them...so what.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:19 |  #66

Hogloff wrote in post #17270333 (external link)
No...I am talking about actual experience with the gear you seem to be dreaming about. Have you shot anything extensive with the sony sensor camerras? Have you even shot 1 single image with them.

From my actual usage of the gear you question...I say the DXO DR tests stack up in line with what I've actually seen in my images. You seem to like to armchair quarterback and criticize without going through the work yourself.

I shoot with a 5DIII and a D700...I've extensively shot on the D800, and I've played around plenty with Sony cameras. I'm criticizing the methodology, how the results are reached, not the results themselves. This is also besides the point, whether or not you or I shoot Sony does not affect how DXOMark proves its points. The D700 and D800 are great for raising shadows, the 5DIII is better for High ISO. It is childish to simplify this to oh my a7R is better than all of your sensors. Everything has its pros and cons, and that's something that gets lost in translation in a simple score without explanation for weighting or methodology. I agree, the sony sensors are nice for raising your shadows by 3-5 stops. I've done it myself countless times. But you're misinterpreting my posts, I'm not attacking your camera brand, I am pointing out that DXOMark's test process would not stand up to academic standards. A PHD student or a research team writing a paper in the same way would have their credentials rescinded. Their colleagues from around the world would point out the flaw in their research - that they aren't providing transparency and documentation, only conclusions. This is the underlying crux of my argument.


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:20 |  #67
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Nethawked wrote in post #17270206 (external link)
Would you be promoting the value so much if it ranked your favorite brand low? I know I know that answer.

Not at all as my favorite brand is Canon which is already ranked low. But I am "big enough" to use multiple brands each targeted at a specific type of shooting. I don't need to have my gear have the Canon label on it. I am quite alright to use many different brands of gear.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:24 |  #68
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Nethawked wrote in post #17270219 (external link)
I do. Countless people looking at countless photographs and gaining pleasure from the experience, not a single one pointing out the idiocy of dynamic range or clinical measurements, or which camera or lens captured the image. It's all about the scene and the talent of the photographer, not your silly purchase justification.

No one is justifying anything here...I'm sure not, maybe you?

I buy my gear to meet specific shooting conditions not specific brands. I have a mix bag of gear from 3 different manufactures and lenses from at least 6 different brands.

Of course its the talent off the photographer that creates the vision...but the right gear for the right job makes for many more keepers. That's just a fact.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:25 |  #69

Hogloff wrote in post #17270342 (external link)
And what does that have to do with the validity of DXO testing...the general public does not care...the general public uses cell phones...this website is not targeted at the general public...this website contains many advanced users who do research into their gear and one of those site visited by many is DXO to review their detailed tests.

THATS MY POINT...who gives a hoot about the general public and if Canon wants to target them. McDonalds targets the general public and I stay clear of them...so what.

So you're saying you're more "advanced" than Thom Hogan? http://www.dslrbodies.​com …u-believe-in-dxomark.html (external link)


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:25 |  #70
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idkdc wrote in post #17270307 (external link)
Seems like CanonPaperboy is making answers for Hogloff. I could be wrong, but it's probably a duplicate account here made just for this thread.

I'm afraid not...I'm a little bit more mature than that. I questions others here though.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:26 |  #71
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idkdc wrote in post #17270349 (external link)
I shoot with a 5DIII and a D700...I've extensively shot on the D800, and I've played around plenty with Sony cameras. I'm criticizing the methodology, how the results are reached, not the results themselves. This is also besides the point, whether or not you or I shoot Sony does not affect how DXOMark proves its points. The D700 and D800 are great for raising shadows, the 5DIII is better for High ISO. It is childish to simplify this to oh my a7R is better than all of your sensors. Everything has its pros and cons, and that's something that gets lost in translation in a simple score without explanation for weighting or methodology. I agree, the sony sensors are nice for raising your shadows by 3-5 stops. I've done it myself countless times. But you're misinterpreting my posts, I'm not attacking your camera brand, I am pointing out that DXOMark's test process would not stand up to academic standards. A PHD student or a research team writing a paper in the same way would have their credentials rescinded. Their colleagues from around the world would point out the flaw in their research - that they aren't providing transparency and documentation, only conclusions. This is the underlying crux of my argument.

Your argument about its the photographer not the gear just got blown out the window.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:30 |  #72

Hogloff wrote in post #17270367 (external link)
I'm afraid not...I'm a little bit more mature than that. I questions others here though.

Hogloff wrote in post #17270368 (external link)
Your argument about its the photographer not the gear just got blown out the window.

Um, you're confusing posters for each other just like CanonPaperboy is doing. Don't remember making that particular argument on this thread, I think that was another poster.


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:31 |  #73
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idkdc wrote in post #17270349 (external link)
I shoot with a 5DIII and a D700...I've extensively shot on the D800, and I've played around plenty with Sony cameras. I'm criticizing the methodology, how the results are reached, not the results themselves. This is also besides the point, whether or not you or I shoot Sony does not affect how DXOMark proves its points. The D700 and D800 are great for raising shadows, the 5DIII is better for High ISO. It is childish to simplify this to oh my a7R is better than all of your sensors. Everything has its pros and cons, and that's something that gets lost in translation in a simple score without explanation for weighting or methodology. I agree, the sony sensors are nice for raising your shadows by 3-5 stops. I've done it myself countless times. But you're misinterpreting my posts, I'm not attacking your camera brand, I am pointing out that DXOMark's test process would not stand up to academic standards. A PHD student or a research team writing a paper in the same way would have their credentials rescinded. Their colleagues from around the world would point out the flaw in their research - that they aren't providing transparency and documentation, only conclusions. This is the underlying crux of my argument.

I thought I read a few posts back that you didn't really look at the DXO methodology and are just parroting what Tom Hogan wrote. So you are criticizing something you have never actually looked into yourself? What exactly in their testing methods don't you like. Seems odd you would criticize something for valiantly, yet have not looked at it in any detail yourself.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 17:33 |  #74

Hogloff wrote in post #17270376 (external link)
I thought I read a few posts back that you didn't really look at the DXO methodology and are just parroting what Tom Hogan wrote. So you are criticizing something you have never actually looked into yourself? What exactly in their testing methods don't you like. Seems odd you would criticize something for valiantly, yet have not looked at it in any detail yourself.

I didn't parrot, actually someone else took the time to run through each of his points, which you didn't seem to directly answer that post and try to dispel each point one by one. That has nothing to do with another poster's argument that "it's not the gear, it's the photographer." Not disagreeing or agreeing with that statement, but that wasn't my point and again you're confusing posts here just like CanonPaperboy is doing. That's kind of weird, but CanonvsNIkon got banned from the forums, so we can hopefully just attribute the account to him/her.

I have looked into their website and scores myself a while back. They just give numbers for resolution per sensor per lens that rolled out of their software algorithms. Like I said, it's an engineering black box for how they get their numbers and how they weight their final score.


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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 17:34 |  #75
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idkdc wrote in post #17270366 (external link)
So you're saying you're more "advanced" than Thom Hogan? http://www.dslrbodies.​com …u-believe-in-dxomark.html (external link)

Exactly where did I say this. I said the people on this board are more advanced than the general public and tests like DXO is very relevant for many. If you don't like them...then I guess don't visit DXO...but please let other intelligent people make their own opinions on the data.




  
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