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Thread started 13 Nov 2014 (Thursday) 09:04
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Canon 100-400 II vs. Sigma 150-600 Sport for Wildlife/Nature: Some Early Speculations

 
jeetsukumaran
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Nov 13, 2014 09:04 |  #1

Like at least some folks, I am trying to decide between the new Canon EF 100-400 II and the Sigma 150-600 Sport. There is really too little information out there now for the comparison of these with regards to image quality (though I am guessing that mindless religious fervour might have already decided the issue for some; if I shared that sentiment, then things would certainly be easier for me here!). Which makes things difficult to decide right now, because for me, reach and image quality are of paramount importance, with portability etc. being very secondary.

My main application will be wildlife and nature. I have been shooting for a couple of decades now, but my photography to date has primarily been overwhelmingly close-ups (rainforest herps: used to be a field herpetologist) and landscape. My longest lens is the EF 70-200L f/4 IS, but I now probably spend more time on the wide-angle side of things, with the TS-E 24mm f/3.5 and the Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 being my favorites (the former increasingly over the latter in recent times). I am trying to get into the wildlife side of things, and it looks like I picked a good year for it given the new lenses introduced this year!

Anyway, after poring over MTF charts and specs and sample images (more from the Sigma (external link) than the Canon (external link), which are very few and none of which are full-resolution, unpost-processed originals), here are some of my thoughts:

- The Canon (at 400mm) is going to have higher acutance (fine-detail resolution) than the Sigma at 600mm in the (full-frame) corners and edges at all apertures, though contrast will be not significantly different. Toward the center, the two will not be significantly different. (Stupendously speculative, based on comparison of cross-manufacturer MTF charts, and I will not argue with anyone who scoffs at this methodology or conclusion!)

- The Canon + 1.4xTC is going to be not significantly different than the Sigma at 600mm in both acutance as well as contrast across the frame when stopped down (Canon at f/8 or f/11, Sigma at f/6.3), and might, in fact be a little worse. (As above, stupendously speculative, based on comparison of cross-manufacturer MTF charts, and, again I will not argue with anyone who scoffs at this methodology or conclusion!) Of course, with the Canon it is going to be center-point AF only on some bodies and no AF on others.

- The Canon is going to have faster AF and better IS. (Somehwat speculative, but, even though I cannot even pretend that this is based on evidence, this one I am a little more confident about: just call me a Bayesian, i.e. I am happy placing priors on hypotheses and have these updated once the evidence is considered!)

- The Canon is (obviously and measurably) lighter and more compact, allowing it to be easily used in contexts where the Sigma will be awkward enough to be discouraging, e.g., event photography, family outings, fun travel, and so on.

- The Canon's compactness and weight as well as (speculative) better IS will make it preferable for backpackers or folks who otherwise eneed to travel light with the option of ditching the tripod/monopod (small aircraft, kayaks, crammed safari), or for folks who primarily do a lot of hand-held photography (e.g., BIF).

- In the wildlife domain, where "reach is king" and there is usually not much of interest in the corners and edges (or when using crop cameras), the Sigma will be preferable for those who do not mind schlepping the extra bulk and weight of not just the lens, but also a monopod/tripod + head (one might argue that if one is willing to schlepp all that, then for a few pounds more, one might as well schlepp a big gun like the 500 f/4 or 600 f/4, but those few extra pounds are going to cost you $8K extra).

- In the landscape domain (and yes, I am one of those that considers every focal-length a "good" landscape focal length; one of my pet peeves is the use of "landscape lens" and "wide-angle lens" interchangeably), the Canon will be a clear winner, due to its superior corner and edge acutance, and better filter flexibility (that hood-window to turn the polarizer is *nice*).

- [ADDED] For dragon-flies, butterflies, pond/back-yard wildlife: the Canon wins by its fantastic MFD and magnification factor, coupled with compactness and hand-holdability.

Full disclosure: I have both lenses on pre-order, so do not (yet!) suffer the real "I do not have it therefore it sucks" or "I have it so it is the best" syndrome. One the other hand, I, of course, have my own pre-existing biases (or priors if you want to get all statistical!). I think Canon has been knocking stuff right out of the park with their recent zooms, from the 70-200 f/2.8 II to the 24-70 f/2.8 II to the recent 16-35 f/4. By all accounts these are game-changers in that they challenge the conventional wisdom of primes are always better optically than zooms: these "generation 2" zooms are measurably equal or equivalent to any prime (or Canon prime, at least) throughout their focal lengths. On the other hand, Sigma has, until recently, had a very poor history. If this was still the case, then there would be no question. However, everything seems to have changed radically in the last couple of years, from the manufacturing to QA to service (this is not a subjective impression: it is verifiable fact). And, with the Global Vision rebirth, they, too, appear to be pushing out game-changing winners (their 50mm rivals the Zeiss Otus when stopped down one stop).


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Philihase
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Nov 13, 2014 10:32 |  #2

I still dont think the lenses tbh should be compared really because of physical differenses between the 2 (weight and length) plus ones a 400mm and the others a 600mm. But seeing as everyones going to do it. Theres a couple more variables that may be added.

Price with an extender. Going by Adorama the price for the Sigma is 2000. The Canon is $2200 plus a Canon 1.4 extender $450 so a total of $2650 so an extra $650. No small change at the end of the day. (This is assuming someones starting from scratch and has no extender).

Also if we are going the extender route dont forget a comparison with the Sigma with a 1.4 and the Canon with a 2.0. Not forgeting the Canon wont focus then on any body (Ithink) without taping pins etc.

Disclosure here as well. I do own a Sigma and I have the feeling that at the end of the day what will sway a lot of people will be the physical dimensions of the lenses. I cant really see build quality which hasn´tbeen mentioned as the Sigma is built to a very high standard being a factor.


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ed ­ rader
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Nov 13, 2014 10:36 as a reply to  @ Philihase's post |  #3

here's my prediction: canon will be stellar and like its predecessor will become the most common wildlife lens you'll see in the field used by serious canon shooters who want the best lens possible. it will be the best compact wildlife zoom made by anyone.

the sigma will also be like its predecessors. same as it ever was.


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Philihase
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Nov 13, 2014 11:01 |  #4

ed rader wrote in post #17269554 (external link)
here's my prediction: canon will be stellar and like its predecessor will become the most common wildlife lens you'll see in the field used by serious canon shooters who want the best lens possible. it will be the best compact wildlife zoom made by anyone.

the sigma will also be like its predecessors. same as it ever was.

A serious Canon shooter who wants the best lens possible for wildlife would surely be using one of the big primes or maybe the 200 400mm? Or are we talking around the price range and compact? Where does the 400mm F5.6 fit into this?

As to The Sigma being like its predecessors. Same as it ever was? The new lenses coming out from Sigma appear to point to a fact that it is not the same as it ever was.


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Charlie
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Nov 13, 2014 11:10 |  #5

canon looks to be the winner*

*because @F8 adapted to the 1.4x, only some camera bodies will have the ability to AF

Big advantage for the canon is the size. Even with the 1.4x it's still significantly smaller than the sigmonster. Some dedicated wildlife may not care about the size, but an amateur like me appreciates a smaller lens when possible.

Another advantage.... Filters. The sigmonster is 100+mm, canon 77. The price between the two are fairly close, non issue, even with the extenders TBH.

Sigma's main advantage will be able to AF near 900mm with extender! If you do 600 on a regular basis and dont care about size, sigmonster is for you. 600 is significant over 400, it's pretty damn good for small birds. 400 definitely feels short after you've shot 600 for a while.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Nov 13, 2014 11:28 |  #6

I'm glad to see this comparative discussion started, even though we all know it's premature. I think I am more drawn towards the 100-400mm for its weight, which will make it a better all-a-rounder lens. I too would be very interested in using it as a landscape telephoto. The Sigma, with it's weight, is probably more for sport/wildlife shooters - people who mainly shoot those genres, while the Canon's lighter/smaller form will be awesome for all sorts of general purpose uses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at Canon's MTF charts, the 100-400L II looks like it is going to be a very sharp lens. I thought the version 1 lens was sharp-but-not-super-sharp...version 2 is looking like a very nice step up.

One thing I'm eager to learn about is if the additional aperture blade in the 100-400 will make a big difference in bokeh. The original 100-400mm is a really nice lens, but can have a pretty horrible bokeh.

I really want the 100-400L II and am likely get it, but I'm going to force myself to wait a bit to see reviews...but it's really really hard not to pre-order. :lol:


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Nov 13, 2014 11:35 |  #7

Charlie wrote in post #17269605 (external link)
600 is significant over 400, it's pretty damn good for small birds. 400 definitely feels short after you've shot 600 for a while.

So true!

You wouldn't be able to AF the Sigma with a TC attached, would you? I'm not sure what aperture an f/6.3 lens would be with a TC attached. If not, then at least you can get pretty close to 600mm with a 1.4x extender. And Sigma's "600mm" is probably not even close to actually being 600m if their 120-300mm is any guide.


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Charlie
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Nov 13, 2014 11:44 |  #8

the MTF suggests that the lens is off the charts...... performs best @400mm, and it takes extenders VERY well, even with the 2x and stopping down it's still in the very very good category, corner to corner. It wont be able to AF at that point, but for detail shots, it's a pretty good idea of having 100mm - 800mm on tap.

David Arbogast wrote in post #17269643 (external link)
So true!

You wouldn't be able to AF the Sigma with a TC attached, would you? I'm not sure what aperture an f/6.3 lens would be with a TC attached. If not, then at least you can get pretty close to 600mm with a 1.4x extender. And Sigma's "600mm" is probably not even close to actually being 600m if their 120-300mm is any guide.

I think it would report F8 from what I read, not sure though.


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bobbyz
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Nov 13, 2014 11:59 |  #9

David Arbogast wrote in post #17269643 (external link)
So true!

You wouldn't be able to AF the Sigma with a TC attached, would you? I'm not sure what aperture an f/6.3 lens would be with a TC attached. If not, then at least you can get pretty close to 600mm with a 1.4x extender. And Sigma's "600mm" is probably not even close to actually being 600m if their 120-300mm is any guide.

I think sigma f6.3 lenses report f5.6 for the AF. Could be wrong.


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stevo67
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Nov 13, 2014 12:26 |  #10

I think i'll stick with my canon 400mm 5.6l after having the most useless inept customer service from sigma that i've ever experienced.




  
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Scott ­ M
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Nov 13, 2014 12:53 |  #11

While the extra reach of the Sigma intrigues me, I just cannot abide by the larger size over the Canon. The existing 100-400L is the largest telephoto I can fit in my travel bag along with the rest of my kit, and going to a larger bag would be difficult because we travel by air quite often to our destination. I am not in a hurry to upgrade to the new 100-400L MKII, as I will not need a telephoto for any wildlife until spring. So, I can afford to wait for reviews and comparisons before deciding if I will sell my existing 100-400L.


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DreDaze
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Nov 13, 2014 15:25 |  #12

David Arbogast wrote in post #17269643 (external link)
So true!

You wouldn't be able to AF the Sigma with a TC attached, would you? I'm not sure what aperture an f/6.3 lens would be with a TC attached. If not, then at least you can get pretty close to 600mm with a 1.4x extender. And Sigma's "600mm" is probably not even close to actually being 600m if their 120-300mm is any guide.

using the new sigma 1.4TC it will AF with a body capable of autofocusing at f8

also the comment about not being 300mm, caused me to just shoot off 3 shots of three different lenses at 300mm...and it's pretty darn close if it's not 300mm...


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Nov 13, 2014 15:32 |  #13

ed rader wrote in post #17269554 (external link)
here's my prediction: canon will be stellar and like its predecessor will become the most common wildlife lens you'll see in the field used by serious canon shooters who want the best lens possible. it will be the best compact wildlife zoom made by anyone.

the sigma will also be like its predecessors. same as it ever was.

i think most serious wildlife shooters would be using one of the big super telephotos, and not waste their time with the 100-400L

i'm surprised the sigma 35mm didn't get you to realize that maybe, just maybe, sigma can produce some good lenses...


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jeetsukumaran
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Nov 13, 2014 15:34 |  #14

David Arbogast wrote in post #17269643 (external link)
So true!

You wouldn't be able to AF the Sigma with a TC attached, would you? I'm not sure what aperture an f/6.3 lens would be with a TC attached. If not, then at least you can get pretty close to 600mm with a 1.4x extender. And Sigma's "600mm" is probably not even close to actually being 600m if their 120-300mm is any guide.


This thread (external link) suggests that using the Nikon 300mm f/2.8 prime as a reference, at short distances (9 feet), the Sigma FOV at 300mm is equivalent to 250mm and at 600mm it is equivalent to 465mm. At longer distances (40 feet), the FOV's are identical (external link), i.e. the 600mm is a "true" 600mm and the 300mm is a "true" 300mm. Not sure where the transition happens.

Interestingly, the same review shows that the Sigma does dramatically better at long distances rather than short (external link), generally equal to than the Nikon 300mm f/2.8 + 2X TC but superior to it at longer distances (cue Nikon jokes here :) ... ). The full review (not broken up into posts) can be seen here (external link).

Sigma's new TC's are supposed to report a false aperture to fool camera bodies into continuing to autofocus. This thread (external link) shows the Sigma with 1.4TC at 840mm f/11 (and, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that these were taken with AF focusing).


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Nov 13, 2014 15:39 |  #15

Can someone explain to me real quick in simple terms why a lens wouldn't AF? (If it's an AF lens). Also what's the significance of f/8 in that relation?


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