TTL / ETTL question.

I just purchased a gripped Elan 7 and a Sunpak 5000AF Flash. The Sunpak seems to work fine on the Elan 7, in either auto (which I prefer) or TTL.

Question number 1 is: Will it just be easier to use one of my EX-series flashes with the Elan 7? I know if I bounce with the Sunpak, I have to accomodate that by opening the aperture on camera from what is entered in the flash. Won't the EX account for the bounce just like it does on my EOS 60D/6D?

Question number 2 is: Are TTL and ETTL different enough that I can't use the Sunpak on my digital cameras? I mounted it, but the settings are all funky. I have to dismount to change ISO. Even shutting off the camera doesn't work.

Question number 3 is: The Sunpak is capable of acting as a slave. Is that just for firing, or will it adjust output as directed by my 580EX II master? If it is just a dumb 'fire-now' slave, I can use it for background group C, if I set output manually.

I can answer question 3 by setting up a studio session and seeing what happens. The other two questions require wasting some film. I was hoping someone could help me out so I can avoid having to do that.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17339400
I just purchased a gripped Elan 7 and a Sunpak 5000AF Flash. The Sunpak seems to work fine on the Elan 7, in either auto (which I prefer) or TTL.

Question number 1 is: Will it just be easier to use one of my EX-series flashes with the Elan 7? I know if I bounce with the Sunpak, I have to accomodate that by opening the aperture on camera from what is entered in the flash. Won't the EX account for the bounce just like it does on my EOS 60D/6D?

Question number 2 is: Are TTL and ETTL different enough that I can't use the Sunpak on my digital cameras? I mounted it, but the settings are all funky. I have to dismount to change ISO. Even shutting off the camera doesn't work.

Question number 3 is: The Sunpak is capable of acting as a slave. Is that just for firing, or will it adjust output as directed by my 580EX II master? If it is just a dumb 'fire-now' slave, I can use it for background group C, if I set output manually.

I can answer question 3 by setting up a studio session and seeing what happens. The other two questions require wasting some film. I was hoping someone could help me out so I can avoid having to do that.

The Elan 7 was introduced after the EOS 3. The EOS 3 was the first to have ETTL capability, so based on that I would say that your EX flashes should work fine in ETTL mode with the Elan 7. The EX flashes also can be used in TTL mode.

TTL mode is completely different from ETTL mode. It's full name is TTL-OTF(Through The Lens Off The Film surface) whereby a sensor inside the camera reads a reflection of the light bouncing off of the film surface and shuts down the flash in real time when enough light has been emitted for proper exposure. It was a great system and I suggest that you try it with your Elan(I preferred it for my film cameras).

Unfortunately TTL-OTF obviously will not work with digital cameras as there's no film inside.

As for your third question I'm unfamiliar with that flash so can't help you there.

As stated, TTL reads off the surface of the film and then tells the flash to 'Stop outputting light' when enough light has been detected. An ISO setting on the flash should not be necessary in TTL mode, as the camera is the one giving the 'stop' command...the ISO setting in the flash should only be important if in Flash Photosensor (Auto) mode.

Reading specs of Sunpak 5000AF, it appears it is TTL compatible but NOT ETTL compatible. ETTL compatibility requires a flash the responds to camera command 'Preflash' and to the flash command given before the shutter opens 'Give n amount of power'.

Bounce flash should work properly in TTL mode (with a TTL-OTF camera) or Auto mode, without compensating the lens aperture. It should also work fine in ETTL mode, but some users have experienced poor bounce flash exposure behavior with some non-Canon (bargain Asian) models of flash even though the flash is Canon ETTL compatible.

ETTL had to re-invent TTL flash exposure because the surface reflectivity of the digital sensor prevents them from monitoring the surface of the sensor in the same manner as they previously had monitored the surface of the film during exposure.

Thanks for the replies.

I have been playing with Auto and TTL modes on the flash. In Auto, I have to dial in the aperture on the flash to match that chosen on the body. In TTL, the camera/flash chooses the aperture at time of exposure, so I have no control over it like I do in Auto. Is there any other reason to choose Auto over TTL, or the other way around, besides aperture control? Do AUTO and TTL both take bounce into account? It seems like TTL does, but I don't know about auto.

As mentioned, the EX flashes work as expected on the ELAN 7. That is too easy, though.

I'm also still curious about the SLAVE mode. The manual says I can use SLAVE mode in AUTO, MANUAL and MULTI. It doesn't have a 'group' selection, though. So I guess it is just a dumb 'fire-now' type setup. I'll play with that the next time I'm in the 'studio', otherwise known as the 'kitchen'. Right now my wife is cranking out 160 dozen cookies for Christmas. If I go in there, I better be volunteering to wash some dishes!

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17340580
Thanks for the replies.

I have been playing with Auto and TTL modes on the flash. In Auto, I have to dial in the aperture on the flash to match that chosen on the body. In TTL, the camera/flash chooses the aperture at time of exposure, so I have no control over it like I do in Auto. Is there any other reason to choose Auto over TTL, or the other way around, besides aperture control? Do AUTO and TTL both take bounce into account? It seems like TTL does, but I don't know about auto.

Sorta true, but not necessarily! A cheapo TTL flash/camera will give you one aperture that covers the range of distances that the flash is capable of regulating from Minimum Power to Maximum Power. For example, the Auto flash spec might say Range 3-30' and its Guide Number of 120 means that f/4 can reach out to 30', and at minimum range it has to use 1/8 fractional power to achieve minimum range. But a truly good camera and flash LET YOU CHOOSE the aperture you want, but warn you with a flashing light if you are asking for something outside its range!

Both TTL and Auto do not care what the flashhead orientation is...both merely measure 'enough light' regardless of how that light gets there (straight flash, modifier in front of flash, bounce up, bounce backward, bounce against your assistant's dirty T-shirt!) TTL measure the light at the film plane, Auto measures light striking whatever bounces that light back toward the photosensor lens.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17340580
I'm also still curious about the SLAVE mode. The manual says I can use SLAVE mode in AUTO, MANUAL and MULTI. It doesn't have a 'group' selection, though. So I guess it is just a dumb 'fire-now' type setup. I'll play with that the next time I'm in the 'studio', otherwise known as the 'kitchen'. Right now my wife is cranking out 160 dozen cookies for Christmas. If I go in there, I better be volunteering to wash some dishes!

I am not familar with Canon 'wireless' outside the context of ETTL wireless. Someone else will have to field that question about 'TTL compatibilty' + 'wireless slave' capable flash

Wilt, thanks for the clarification on bounce with respect to TTL and AUTO. I think I prefer to use AUTO and regulate the aperture myself. I don't want TTL grabbing a wildly inappropriate aperture. At least I have enough background to start burning some film. Now to figure out where to get it processed. Rural Indiana is not known for an abundance of anything, except hogs and corn. I guess I'll have to hitch up the buckboard and head into town!

I don't know what flexibility (or lack of flexibility) your flash has for aperture selection in Auto mode! Some Auto flashes give you no option...it tells you what single aperture there is for the selected ISO value. Other flashes allow a choice of two to four apertures, you set the aperture on your lens and also on the flash dial/selection switch, so it knows what aperture has been set on the lens.

Frankly, before Canon butchered its nnnEX 'External' mode (criticized for -2EV underexposure compared to all other photosensor flash units), Auto flash was extremely accurate. But so was TTL...it also had the advantage of only seeing what the lens sees...if your lens was 150mm the flash was not reading a fixed angle more appropriate to 35mm or 28mm lens. I consider TTL flash metering to be superior to Auto photosensor for that reason. And, in my mind, BOTH are superior to ETTL!

After a bit more messing around, I come up with this:

TTL: probably the best and most flexible mode. I can change camera settings, including FEC, and the flash keeps up. It took me a few minutes to figure out that the flash responds to +FEC by lowering the ISO setting that the flash is reading. Odd, but whatever.

AUTO: Works just like my first auto flashes did 40 years ago. I set ISO and aperture, and the flash gives me a range of distances I can work in. This setting makes the flash useful on my 60D & 6D, where it works just fine. The only catch is that the flash does not read aperture in this mode. Why not? It does in TTL. Again, odd but whatever.

MANUAL: Works just like any EX flash in manual.

SLAVE: This one was tricky. Mainly because I forgot about the ETTL-II preflash. I had this thing set at full power and was getting black frames! Then I remembered the pre-flash. I set the camera to MANUAL (flash-mode, not exposure - no ETTL-II pre-flash) and it worked just fine. I just tested it in MANUAL slave-mode and it works fine. It also works in AUTO-SLAVE, but I didn't test that. And yes, it is just a dumb 'fire-now' slave flash, which is why the preflash sets it off. Which also makes it about useless for a 580EX II or 60D mastered multi-flash setup.

Summary. I got a new toy (Elan 7 w/BP-300 grip) and a 550EX-like flash (no HSS, though) for $30. I like new toys, especially cheap ones. Now to talk my wife into that 24L II I've been looking at....

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17340823
flashes did 40 years ago. I set ISO and aperture, and the flash gives me a range of distances I can work in. This setting makes the flash useful on my 60D & 6D, where it works just fine. The only catch is that the flash does not read aperture in this mode. Why not? It does in TTL. Again, odd but whatever.

Simply, the TTL flash back then was not designed to get a signal from the camera telling it the lens FL or aperture. The lenses back in the days of TTL did not have a means of passing aperture settings to the camera, and the diaphram control was still ON THE LENS (not on the camera body)...controls did not move from lens to body until after the introduction of the EOS line of cameras...years after TTL was invented and integrated commonly in film SLRs.

Wilt wrote in post #17340833
Simply, the TTL flash back then was not designed to get a signal from the camera telling it the lens FL or aperture. The lenses back in the days of TTL did not have a means of passing aperture settings to the camera, and the diaphram control was still ON THE LENS (not on the camera body)...controls did not move from lens to body until after the introduction of the EOS line of cameras...years after TTL was invented and integrated commonly in film SLRs.

Oh, boy! I am getting old. I completely forgot about the aperture ring on old lenses. That completely explains TTL being unaware of the aperture setting. This is all the more amazing because I just bought a Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 MANUAL lens. My wife is right. I AM losing it.