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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 29 Dec 2014 (Monday) 01:58
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5D3 vs. 7D2 Field Test (Focus, Focus, Focus...)

 
John ­ Sheehy
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Jan 08, 2015 11:06 |  #31

DanC.Licks wrote in post #17362257 (external link)
I have found with my E-M1 that even though it has an excellent 5 axis IS system built in that works wonders, as soon as I can get the shutter speeds up high enough (1.5x focal length and above) I get better results without it, and I would assume it would be the same with a lens with IS built in. The first shot definitely shows movement, but it does not look like typical camera shake. The other two suggest the same, combined with misfocus. I would bet it has to do with the IS. In that kind of light I don't think you would need IS.

I decided a long time ago that IS corrects gross camera movements well, but actually adds extra jitter at very fine levels of detail, so it can never give you the same benefit as a very high shutter speed. Of course, the better the IS, the higher the shutter speed at which it starts to become counter-productive.




  
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Kickflipkid687
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Jan 08, 2015 11:12 as a reply to  @ post 17372365 |  #32

iTR only works in Zone/All AF points I believe. Maybe 1 more mode.
But not in group AF/Expansion.

I tried it a few times, but it's all over the place for my wildlife shots. But for skiers, it might work.... might....


My Flickr page - https://www.flickr.com​/photos/86957042@N07/ (external link)

  
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ppmax
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Jan 08, 2015 13:05 |  #33

Kickflipkid687 wrote in post #17372388 (external link)
iTR only works in Zone/All AF points I believe. Maybe 1 more mode.
But not in group AF/Expansion.

I tried it a few times, but it's all over the place for my wildlife shots. But for skiers, it might work.... might....

I ended up disabling it and think it helped. It's an interesting feature, and I think it can help, but not with subjects like these.

For what it's worth, I'm also thinking a lot about the type of AF Area mode to use and how it relates to the size and contrast of the target in the viewfinder. I found that some of my single-point AF shots missed big time when aimed squarely on a skiers chest...coincidentally​(?) the area under which the target was placed was a big blotch of uniform/monochormatic fabric. I think in these cases AF Point Expansion would have been better since there was better contrast adjacent to the target point.

Let us know how your repair goes!

Thanks for your posts,
PP


Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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Kickflipkid687
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Jan 08, 2015 13:21 as a reply to  @ ppmax's post |  #34

According to The-Digital-Picture site, he claims that he found that if the camera cant find contrast on the select AF point, it samples/uses an adjacent point....

But I haven't seen this mentioned officially. So it could cause issue if true?

So if you're focused on a birds head, and it can't get clear contrast, it uses contrast on the edge of the head.
But I don't like that. i'd rather have it try on the point I want, and not do what it wants, if that's the case.


My Flickr page - https://www.flickr.com​/photos/86957042@N07/ (external link)

  
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skid00skid00
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Jan 08, 2015 19:54 as a reply to  @ Kickflipkid687's post |  #35

IF you set AF 'expansion points', THEN the camera will use adjacent AF points to find focus. IF you set ONLY the center AF point, then ONLY that point will be used. IF you used AREA focus, any of those points can be used, and if you use ALL AREA focus, any point can be used.




  
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Kickflipkid687
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Jan 09, 2015 11:27 as a reply to  @ skid00skid00's post |  #36

An apparently undocumented attribute of the outer AF points (at least in single AF point mode) is that they all can use contrast information under the next AF point toward the center, causing the adjacent AF point to functionally appear as a focus assist-like point. When contrast becomes weak (or even non-existent) on a selected outer AF point and the next point down/up (for top/bottom AF points) or left/right (for right/left AF points) has good contrast, the 7D II will auto focus using the position of that particular assist point. Here is a pair of examples:


http://www.the-digital-picture.com …Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II.aspx (external link)


My Flickr page - https://www.flickr.com​/photos/86957042@N07/ (external link)

  
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skid00skid00
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Post edited over 4 years ago by skid00skid00.
     
Jan 09, 2015 13:33 as a reply to  @ Kickflipkid687's post |  #37

Wow! Thanks for this.

Oops. I read the rest of that article: "Whether the outer AF points are simply larger than the point indicator or the adjacent AF point is actually being used, I cannot say."

So I'm going to believe that what that reviewer saw was the typical (but almost unposted) behavior of Canon's AF points-that then extend *past* the box borders shown in the viewfinder. And both my 1Ds and 5D3 AF boxes are misaligned by about 1/3rd of the box width to where focus can actually be achieved. So I can almost get focus at the box border to the left of the point I have set...




  
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ppmax
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Jan 09, 2015 20:55 as a reply to  @ skid00skid00's post |  #38

So I thought I'd post a follow up (more charts and graphs!) showing some new information.

This first screenshot shows a table showing the total number of in focus, slightly OOF, and total misses from the 3 days of shooting/experimenting I did. This table also includes information about which cases were used in each AF Area mode. As you can see there were several AF configurations that I did not try (e.g. All Points AF with Case 1):

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7475/16240022461_9f8f535a90_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qK5m​Tg  (external link)

Next, here is a chart showing how many shots were taken within each AF Area mode. As shown, you can see I shot mostly in AF Point Expansion. This chart is important to keep in mind because I didn't take an equal number of shots in each mode, which may have some effect on the "real" batting average for each AF configuration. To keep with the baseball analogy, this column shows number of at bats for each AF Area Mode.
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7483/16216357286_647be16d98_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qGZ5​41  (external link)

Here's a chart showing the total number of keepers per AF Area Mode. This is the overall "batting average" for each AF Area mode. Spot AF Mode keepers are artificially low since I mistakenly took a bunch of shots in this mode using AI Servo (whoops!):
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7521/16055750569_90d35ebffa_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qsMV​gF  (external link)

This next chart shows the "batting average" for each AF Area Mode/Case configuration. In other words, what is the "batting average" (keeper percentage) when shooting AF Point Expansion (4pt) with Case 5? Keep in mind that this is strictly "batting average" with no minimum number of at bats. So the "batting average" for using All Points AF mode with Case 5 looks awesome, until you realize there were only 3 shots was taken with this configuration.
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7508/16241390402_786f478832_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qKcn​ws  (external link)


From the data above, it looks like the best configurations are:
AF Point Expansion (4pt) with Cases 3 and 5;
AF Point Expansion (8pt) with Cases 2, 3, and 4;
Large Zone AF with Case 6;


Keep in mind that there are lots of variables floating around in all this, and definitely user errors:
I was "experimenting" with different combos;
I mistakenly had IS on for the first two days...which caused a slight shift/blur in many shots that would have otherwise been good (double whoops);
It's really hard to develop a consistent, repeatable test pattern to test AF;

thx
PP

Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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offcamber
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Post edited over 4 years ago by offcamber.
     
Jan 10, 2015 03:17 |  #39

I don't have a 5D3 anymore to compare it to, but from shooting with the 7D, 7D2 and my 1DX it seems to me the keeper rate with the 7D2 is about 85% with the little tweaking I've done. The 7D is around 80%. My 1DX is about 99%. I'd say it's actually 100% because I'm guessing any bad shots are simply bad aim. It just never misses. That said, I'm pretty happy with the 7D2. I've had time to tune my 1DX's AF to make it sniper like. I think that with some time and tuning, the 7d2 will get close to that. The complex AF on these cameras isn't perfect out of the box for every situation. Learn to use the custom AF settings for the situations you are shooting.


EOS-7D Mark II | EOS-50D | 1DX | 100F2.8L IS | 17-40F4L Sigma 50F1.4 | Canon 11-24F4| 24-70F2.8L | 40F2.8 | 85F1.8 | 70-200F2.8L IS II | 100-400F4.5L |300F4L IS | 580EXII | 550EX

  
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ppmax
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Jan 10, 2015 10:40 as a reply to  @ offcamber's post |  #40

Thanks for the info offcamber--that's great to hear. I don't know if you read any of the previous bits in this thread, but my 5D3 keeper rate was in the 90's percent shooting these types of subjects. To be fair I haven't shot the same volume of frames as with the 7D2 because I've been trying to diagnose some weird inexplicable front and back focusing behavior with the 7D2.

I sent my 7D2 in yesterday to Canon--we'll see what they find, if anything. Hopefully some "electrical adjustments" will improve the behavior of the system. Spec wise, it sounds like the 7D2 should behave similarly to the 1DX, but I don't have any experience with that camera to compare it to.

One interesting side effect of all this is that the 5D3 now feels a bit slow and clunky vs. the 7D2. If I get the 7D2 back and it nails those missed shots due to the weird front-back behavior, I may sell the 5D3...when looking at the difference in quality between 5D3 and 7D2 RAW files, the differences are really incremental...Canon appears to have done a great job cleaning up the noise vs. the previous 7D (which I used to own).

Anyways, fingers crossed I get some love from the Canon Service Center.

PP


Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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8612images
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Jan 10, 2015 11:06 |  #41

offcamber wrote in post #17375115 (external link)
I don't have a 5D3 anymore to compare it to, but from shooting with the 7D, 7D2 and my 1DX it seems to me the keeper rate with the 7D2 is about 85% with the little tweaking I've done. The 7D is around 80%. My 1DX is about 99%. I'd say it's actually 100% because I'm guessing any bad shots are simply bad aim. It just never misses. That said, I'm pretty happy with the 7D2. I've had time to tune my 1DX's AF to make it sniper like. I think that with some time and tuning, the 7d2 will get close to that. The complex AF on these cameras isn't perfect out of the box for every situation. Learn to use the custom AF settings for the situations you are shooting.


What kinds of images do you shoot (birds, sports etc...) What tweaks are you making?


Steve

  
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Kickflipkid687
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Jan 10, 2015 13:23 as a reply to  @ ppmax's post |  #42

Thanks for the info.

I agree, for most situations, where you're not in very low light/ect, I was not seeing much of any difference between the 5D III or D750, compared to the 7D II.
At least in terms of general image quality.

I'll have to experiment with AF Expansion and Case 3/5 when I get it back.


My Flickr page - https://www.flickr.com​/photos/86957042@N07/ (external link)

  
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5D3 vs. 7D2 Field Test (Focus, Focus, Focus...)
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