Black and White prints have a warm cast to the whites

Disclaimer: I'll try to add a visual aid this evening.

I just received some prints from White House Cust. Color. General quality is very good. However, in all images, the whites have a warm cast to them, almost an orange sepia quality. Its pretty subtle but when I compare against the image on my screen its very noticeable. I have a 15" retina display that I calibrate with a Datacolor spyder pro. The prints are on Kodak Endura, if that means anything.

I realize there could be multiple factors at play here, so I was hoping to start a dialogue to get to the bottom of this. Should I use a profile they provide? Is that even possible? Is there a better paper I should request?

I've had various issues with B&W prints from WHCC (inconsistent image toning, weird double exposure type effects). They are one of my go-to print houses and I really appreciate their customer service, but I use ProDPI for my B&Ws now. I've never had a problem with the ProDPI prints.

Cheers,

Gary

Thanks for the info. Did you ever bother to investigate why you were getting these inconsistencies? Or did you just go to Pro Dpi and never look back.
What I am dealing with is basically what is a neutral image on my screen looking like it was printed on warm tone paper from my darkroom days. The whites have a warm orange-ish glow to them

heres what I am talking about. Its not really this exaggerated but you def. can see a difference

You calibrated your monitor but did you "calibrate" the printer - as in, are you using a profile for that printer/paper/ink combo? A friend does all my black and white art prints on a Canon Pro 100 printer and when he started out we had trouble with a couple of prints because he wasn't using the right profile. Each different paper absorbs each different ink in different ways and different printers may mix colours differently. So, even if the file is calibrated the print may look different depending on which printer/paper/ink is used. Most printers supply profiles for the machine/paper/ink combos they use.

What application/method did you use to do the monochrome conversion? It can make a difference to what colour information is actually passed to the printer. One would really need more information on this, along with details of the colourspace settings for the file that was sent to the print lab.

The one service that I have found that is truly going to give a proper black and white image is the one offered by Whitewall, which is printed on traditional Ilford Rc Multigrade black and white paper. They offer a Baryta based version too. I think it is the only TRUE monochrome digital printing offering available.

Alan

no, i didnt use their printer profile. I asked about this but didnt get an answer as of yet. I can understand that beinga possible issue but the difference here is pretty significant. When I got some test images done, they nailed the black and white. maybe this is isolated to a single printer...

I use Lightroom as my primary editing platform, exporting to NiK or PS as needed. Always output as jpeg sRBG

It was a bit of a frustrating investigation two years ago. I received B&W wet chemistry prints from WHCC with warm and cold tones from separate orders using the same image file. Their response, basically, was that they couldn't control the toning and that's just the way it was. The other issue was an odd double-exposure look to some prints where there appeared to be a ghost image offset by a millimeter or so. I took macro photos of obvious examples of this (they were on 16x20 and up prints) and sent them to customer service. WHCC agreed to reprint... and they came back exactly the same. I suspect a mechanical issue with their printer(s) but I never got any further feedback.

I gave up and tried ProDPI using the exact same files. Printed wonderfully and came out as expected.

Now I don't wish to bash WHCC at all. I still use them for quite a bit of printing needs and their B&W canvas and aluminum sheet prints (not wet chemistry prints) have been outstanding. I just use ProDPI for B&W on photographic paper. Perhaps I should give them another try... but I'm very happy with my ProDPI results.

(BTW, I also prefer the ProDPI Fuji papers over WHCCs Kodak, but that's just personal preference.)

Cheers,

Gary

gnome chompski wrote in post #17373702
no, i didnt use their printer profile. I asked about this but didnt get an answer as of yet. I can understand that beinga possible issue but the difference here is pretty significant. When I got some test images done, they nailed the black and white. maybe this is isolated to a single printer...

I use Lightroom as my primary editing platform, exporting to NiK or PS as needed. Always output as jpeg sRBG

1. Ask them again about the profile.
2. Ask them why the prints are different from the test images.
3. Compare the test image files to the print image files - were they all the same (same B&W processing/JPEG/sRGB)? Is there something you are doing differently?
4. Do you always output/export from the same package or do you export from whichever package you happen to be using last? If the latter check that all the packages have the same export settings or better yet get into the habit of always using the same package for final export. Even if I move an image from LR into Photoshop I always take it back into LR and export it from there. In part because of all the export presets I have for different uses (forums, my website, Instagram etc) but also because it ensures that every B&W file comes out with the same settings.

To expand on Dan's post. When exporting images from LR they will always be RGB colour JPEGs that are exported. For monochrome images normally they will be R=G=B, but this can vary depending on the colourspace used, as some printer profiles will allow for the fact that you might have to shift the colours a little to actually achieve a neutral tone at any particular brightness level. You can see this in the LR Soft proofing system. If you select a printer profile it is likely that the histogram will start to show slight colour separations at the edges. If you pick a general space such as sRGB, aRGB or even ProPhotoRGB then the histogram stays as fully grey. In Photoshop (and other applications too) it is possible to convert the image to a true monochrome one, where there is only a single 8 bit data channel. You can tell that the image is true grayscale, as it will be only 1/3rd the size of the same image with full colour R=G=B channels.

Except for when having prints on Ilford black and white paper at Whitewall I now always use LR to export images in monochrome as full colour files. For prints this seems to give me quite reliable results with both my local Canon inkjet printer, printing direct from LR, and printing on Fuji paper at a lab. I do though use the labs pro service which makes zero changes to the image, and requires the image be exported using the labs own printer profile. Possibly the biggest problem with getting good monochrome prints using a colour printing system is consistency. It only needs a change in the batch of paper stock, or ink. Or in the case of wet lab prints, the chemistry to be a little off, miss mixed, or towards end of life and you can get some quite big changes in tone. For a consumer lab, a large number of clients, printing snaps are not going to notice a that there is a very slight colour cast in a colour image, our eyes are very used to adjusting that sort of thing out in the real world anyway. The issues come when you have a more discerning customer, and they are looking at a monochrome image, then it becomes very easy to notice a slight colour cast, and it can actually become quite a big issue.

Alan

WHCC agrees to reprint the 3 images that had the warm cast. Received them yesterday and they are identical to the images they sent previously. Im giving ProDPI a try, and if this doesnt work, I will see if the issue is indeed on my end. I dont think this method is very efficient, but short of printing my own at home (which I am realizing is ultimately the route I will end up taking unless I can figure this out) is probably the answer to my issues. I just dont want to incur another expense, let alone find a place for a huge printer to sit haha.

Please report back with the ProDPI prints. Even in color images, there's a subtle, yet noticeable difference from WHCC. ProDPI prints are slightly cooler and sharper. The slight tone difference may just be the different paper, but they definitely add a touch of sharpening that looks great to my eyes. (You would have to try some color prints to see this temperature difference, I suppose.)

I haven't asked them specifically what they do in their workflow... I'm just happy with what I get. I don't ask for any color correction or manipulation of any kind. Also, I up-rez my photos to the print size in PS before sending them.

Cheers,

Gary