Dumb and Dumber!

More questions, that are probably really dumb.

What is the difference between a full frame camera, and a not full frame camera.

Should I buy a full frame now, so I don't have to buy one in a few years?

Is one always better than the other? Or does it depend on what your shooting?

What is the difference between a camera with a mirror, and one without a mirror?

Is one better than the other? Or does it depend on what your shooting?


Thank you for using you time to answer some more of my dumb questions!

You all have been very helpful!

BC

i chose the wise ass answer partly because i'm a wise ass, but partly because you will learn more basic things about cameras by reading wikipedia, and watching youtube. Then you will be able to come back here and ask more specific questions.

there are also plenty of resources here if you look around a bit.

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=414088

Bonecollector wrote in post #17423666
More questions, that are probably really dumb.

What is the difference between a full frame camera, and a not full frame camera.

Should I buy a full frame now, so I don't have to buy one in a few years?

Is one always better than the other? Or does it depend on what your shooting?

Obviously you know the difference is in sensor size. The functional difference is primarily that FF sensors have lower noise, 1 to 2 stops lower. Meaning your FF image at ISO 3200 will have about the noise of a crop image at 800 or 1600.

Buy now? Not necessarily, they're getting better every generation.

OTOH, a crop camera is better if you're shooting something like birds in flight (BIF) at great distances with a long telephoto lens. The smaller sensor means a smaller field of view at a given focal length, so your bird looks bigger in the image. And if you need to crop to get the image you want, the crop sensor will have higher pixel density, hence less degradation with cropping. This is known as "pixels on target" or "pixels per duck".

Can't comment on mirrorless cameras, never used one.

-js

Canon EOS 1D Mark II N
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/gearinde​x.php?id=113

Canon EOS 5D Mark II
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/gearinde​x.php?id=110

I thought the first was a full frame and the second wasn't.... am I wrong?

I just don't know why they look different?

Thank you!

The first one, Canon EOS 1D Mark II N, is not full frame. Its sensor is what's known as APS-H size.

The second one, Canon EOS 5D Mark II, is full frame.

No question is ever dumb!
Just answering some of your questions
A full frame camera uses a sensor that’s equivalent in size to 35mm film (36 x 24mm), and is the largest you can buy without moving up to truly professional (and expensive) gear like medium format.

It depends on your needs, skill set etc. You may be very happy with as crop sensor...depending
on what you are shooting.

It does depend on what you want to shoot, and what you want to learn.

If you are only capturing the moment, then even a cell phone can be perfectly fine.

If you want a travel camera, then a mid-range P&S (one that has a lens that can go from wide angle to a 300mm zoom but can't be moved off the camera) is also perfectly fine.

If you want to specialize, say in Sports or Portraits, then you get into all the variations of DSLR and what is important to you.

My take.. if you want to learn, (how to expose, how to white balance, how to get the most out of a camera) get an older DSLR model off ebay for 200-300 bucks, buy one lens, shoot the crapola out of it and THEN figure out what you really want to do/shoot and buy specifically for that. Buying Canon or Nikon is a safe bet, and you can usually recoup money back if/when you sell back to go to a new system. Not saying other makers aren't good, but for learning - I'd go with one of the big two first - you can switch with minimal loss of investment, where starting in another manufacture can have a steeper depreciation of assets.

Also, buying good used glass (lens) with either system is never a bad investment. Bodies will trade out/upgrade over time, but good glass holds its value and is timeless (at least for the most part)

Bonecollector wrote in post #17423666
More questions, that are probably really dumb.

What is the difference between a full frame camera, and a not full frame camera.

Should I buy a full frame now, so I don't have to buy one in a few years?

Is one always better than the other? Or does it depend on what your shooting?

What is the difference between a camera with a mirror, and one without a mirror?

Is one better than the other? Or does it depend on what your shooting?


Thank you for using you time to answer some more of my dumb questions!

You all have been very helpful!

BC

Full frame camera has a sensor about the same size as 35mm film. Generally considered Pro cameras. Cropped cameras, the other kind, have sensors 1.3 or 1.6 times smaller than the full frame sensor camera. These questions are easily answered through a search of the internet; i.e. google.
The type of camera depends on what you want to shoot. These are the types of questions this forum could help you with. Unless you're wealthy, I'd suggest starting off with an inexpensive canon in the $500 range until you learn more about it.

number six wrote in post #17424074
Obviously you know the difference is in sensor size. The functional difference is primarily that FF sensors have lower noise, 1 to 2 stops lower. Meaning your FF image at ISO 3200 will have about the noise of a crop image at 800 or 1600.

Buy now? Not necessarily, they're getting better every generation.

OTOH, a crop camera is better if you're shooting something like birds in flight (BIF) at great distances with a long telephoto lens. The smaller sensor means a smaller field of view at a given focal length, so your bird looks bigger in the image. And if you need to crop to get the image you want, the crop sensor will have higher pixel density, hence less degradation with cropping. This is known as "pixels on target" or "pixels per duck".

Can't comment on mirrorless cameras, never used one.

-js

Conversely, a full frame camera will give you the full benefit of a wide angle lens, (No crop), so if you shoot a lot with one, I'd put my money into full frame.

Although crop sensor cameras have a restricted field of view it is not always the case that this will be of benefit to those who use long lenses. The real reason that the crop sensor is usually better is down the the sensors linear resolution. That is the number of pixels per mm. Generally the crop sensor camera when compared to an equivalent generation FF sensor will have a much higher linear resolution. If you compare a current FF sensor to an old crop sensor though you will find that the linear resolutions are actually very close. A 5DII or 5DIII has about the same resolution as the old 20/30D and is very close to the 40D as well. So a 5DII or 5DIII would probably be a better choice in many cases even for situations needing "reach".

The newly announced 5DS really throws up an interesting situation, in that the resolution is almost as good as the new 7DII and 70D's and better than all other older crop cameras. So if you have the computing power to deal with the 50Mpix files they offer the same reach advantage of a crop sensor. This throws up an interesting situation, because of the wider field of view offered by the larger sensor you could effectively mount a telephoto prime lens on a 5DS; say the 600mm f/4 and use it as if it were a 375-600mm zoom mounted on a crop sensor camera, as you would loose no linear resolution when cropping the image yourself, compared to the 600mm lens on the crop body. Of course that is not a very cost effective thing to do, as you are looking at about £12000 for that body/lens combination, compared to the 7DII/Sigma 150-600mm S combination at "only" £3000!

Alan

There is one benefit to a crop sensor camera that I don't believe has been mentioned in this thread yet:

A crop sensor camera uses the central portion of the image circle produced by the lens (assuming the use of EF lenses, and not EF-S lenses). Almost every lens ever made is a bit sharper at the center, and the ability to resolve fine detail falls off as you go out to the edges and corners.

The way I like to shoot often involves placing the primary subject far off to one side of the frame. When I did his with my full frame 5D, I would often be dissatisfied with the resolution of fine hair and feather detail. When I got a 1.6 crop 50D, I noticed that my mammal and bird photos always had really well resolved hair and feather detail, even when the critters were way off to one side of the composition, or way up or down in one of the corners.

At first I just thought that the 50D was "just so much better" than the 5D. But then as I shot more and thought more about it, I realized that the increased resolution I was experiencing was due to the fact that I was only using the central 50% of the image circle, and those softer edges and deep corners were no longer being utilized. I credit this fact as being the reason why many of my far-off-center images are sharper with the crop cameras than they are with full frame bodies.

I now use a 1D4, with its 1.3 crop sensor. It is kind of like having the best of both worlds - no vignetting ever with any lens at any aperture, no falloff in the deep corners, and yet large enough pixels to get a good clean signal-to-noise ratio.

^ ^ Good point, Tom!

This SOUNDS like a benefit, but in truth it is a paper tiger! Consider this...If a fantastic lens delivers detail resolution of 100 line-pairs/mm to the focal plane of the camera at the Center of the image and only 80 ll/mm at the Edge of the image circle, then

• a 24x36mm FF camera image must be enlarged by 8.46x for it to fill an 8x10 print,
  
• the 15x22mm APS-C image must be enlarged by 13.5x for it to fill an 8x10 print
  
• the print from FF ends up with 11.8 line-pairs/mm at the Center and 9.46 line-pairs at the Edge
  
• the print from APS-C ends up with 7.4 line-pairs/mm throughout its image
  

Thank you all for the help!

I've been really busy lately, sorry I haven't been around... hopefully I'll be free again within the next couple weeks!

BC

I look at it a different way. Determine your budget then buy the best equipment you can afford, learn to use what you have purchased, and don't second guess yourself. Look at photos on this site and unless it is stated what equipment was used you probably will not be able to determine whether the photo was taken with a crop or FF sensor. Yes the different sensors have advantages over each other - if you are going to shoot mostly wildlife, especially birds in flight, then the crop sensor will give you an edge but if you are going to shoot mostly portraits or low light the the full frame will give you an edge. A crop sensor can do most anything a FF sensor can do and a FF sensor can do most anything a crop sensor can do. You might have to work a little harder or differently to get equal results on one sensor compared to the other but it can be done. Don't obsess over which format is the best, just buy within your budget, and LEARN everything you can about photography with your new camera. Most importantly, take lots of pictures and enjoy yourself.