How do you guys feel about this?: Cheating, or No?, and Popularity Contests

Hi,

So, I've had a shot in my head for the longest time and played with the idea of renting a 600mm or 800mm to get me that shot of the moon in the right composition. $$$ in rental fees, months of research, and a cold night out is what it's gonna take me to get me the shot I want. Then I saw this on 500px on my feed:

https://500px.com …jos-by-rafael-ramos-fenoy

I was like WOW. Then I looked closer and saw there's no moon reflection. Then I decided to check out all his work:

https://500px.com/rafa​elramosfenoy

Then I realize he's using the exact same moon picture in all his shots!

The guy has nearly 6000 followers and 1.8mil views! (those are amazing numbers!)... and I feel really disappointed. Most of his pics have a huge stream of comments saying how amazing the moon looks and how great the composition is, and it appears most people are fooled. I dunno, maybe he's deleting all the comments calling him out... I dunno.

I personally do care if people like my stuff. And yeah, I would like more "likes" and favorites and such. I know many people have previously said not to care too much about the popularity aspect, but what can I say?, I do.

Personally, I have no problem with compositing multiple shots (though for myself my own rule is to only use shots from the same place representing the same instance in time), but in this case those shots go from "just okay" to "amazing" with the moon added, cause we know how impossible getting such a shot would be, and it feels to me that he's passing these off as real, though I guess I did not see anywhere he explicitly said that they are indeed real. He doesn't acknowledge any of the comments either, so I guess it's not really "lying" if he never claimed them to be real......

I probably shouldn't care so much about this, but it just makes me feel stupid going though so much expense and trouble to get an "authentic" shot when just sticking in a fake moon makes 99% of the audience love you.

Sometimes I just hate the public side of photography so much that it turns me off.

Opinions?

When the moon is as BIG as it is in some of those shots, its obviously not real. The perspective is not believable.

i googled his name, this seems like his website : http://www.moonipulati​ons.com

seems like he isn't trying to hide anything. but i do think that photographers should be honest with how they represent their work.

personally i don't like the fake look of most of his stuff. Luckily i don't have to.

I think there is the art of photography and there is the art of creating images in post using PS or another post processing software. Everyone, myself included, desires and longs for that one perfect shot a year, and in my case, I have to capture it with my camera, and tweak it in LR. For that photographer, he has developed his style and technique, achieving what his idea of art is, and posts it up. I have to admit some of them are stunning, but like Peoria Man mentioned, you can tell that the moon has been 'shopped in to create the image he was looking for.

I wouldn't give up on your idea, simply because it's your idea, and you've figured out how you want to create it. I say go for it.

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #17449242
i googled his name, this seems like his website : http://www.moonipulati​ons.com

seems like he isn't trying to hide anything. but i do think that photographers should be honest with how they represent their work.

personally i don't like the fake look of most of his stuff. Luckily i don't have to.

Ah good find. Yeah, he does seem to categorize the pics into photographs vs "moonipulations." In that case I don't see an issue.

"moonipulations" is a pretty cool name...he gets bonus points for that!

jay125 wrote in post #17449250
I think there is the art of photography and there is the art of creating images in post using PS or another post processing software. Everyone, myself included, desires and longs for that one perfect shot a year, and in my case, I have to capture it with my camera, and tweak it in LR. For that photographer, he has developed his style and technique, achieving what his idea of art is, and posts it up. I have to admit some of them are stunning, but like Peoria Man mentioned, you can tell that the moon has been 'shopped in to create the image he was looking for.

I wouldn't give up on your idea, simply because it's your idea, and you've figured out how you want to create it. I say go for it.

That's a good way of looking at it. And thanks for the positive support.

Xyclopx wrote in post #17449260
That's a good way of looking at it. And thanks for the positive support.

Most welcome. It is said there is nothing original anymore, and I totally disagree with that. 1,000 people can take a photo of the same flower, and get 1,000 individual photo's of that flower. No two photo's will be the same, and add to that the post processing which will complete the vision of the individual who captured it. At least thats what I believe.

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #17449242
i googled his name, this seems like his website : http://www.moonipulati​ons.com

seems like he isn't trying to hide anything. but i do think that photographers should be honest with how they represent their work.

personally i don't like the fake look of most of his stuff. Luckily i don't have to.

But at the top of the page you link, there's this: "Here you will find the most beautiful Moonscapes, creative (not photoshopped!) Moon illusions, and amazing photo manipulations."

Not sure what he means by "not photoshopped!".

Personally, unless you're a documentary photojournalist or plagiarist or liar, I say make whatever you want - it's the image and how people respond to that image, that matters. On a related note, how many of you alter your reaction to a work of art only because it's accompanied by a lengthy sidebar explanation of the artist's tortured life, the impossibly difficult conditions that he/she worked in, the exquisite craftwork, etc. Yes, all of that adds to an appreciation of the work, but the work ultimately has to stand on its own merits. Anything else is a sham.

Xyclopx wrote in post #17449207
I personally do care if people like my stuff. And yeah, I would like more "likes" and favorites and such. I know many people have previously said not to care too much about the popularity aspect, but what can I say?, I do.


Sometimes I just hate the public side of photography so much that it turns me off.

So, do you crave the public side of photography, or do you hate it? The two statements of yours that I quoted seem to indicate that both are true, in which case you may be conflicted. Being conflicted in that way will not do you any good.

I think you need to figure out what is more important to you: gaining popularity, or creating art in your own way being true to your artistic vision.

Xyclopx wrote in post #17449207
Opinions?

My opinion is that being recognized for your work is not important, unless that recognition leads to lucrative opportunities for you, or if it leads to more quality shooting opportunities for you. Egos are stupid, and we are not supposed to have them, and we are not supposed to feed them, and it is not supposed to feel satisfying when they are fed......because they are not supposed to matter. Artistic pursuits are all-important, and we should go after them with wholehearted abandon!

Tom Reichner wrote in post #17449403
My opinion is that being recognized for your work is not important, unless that recognition leads to lucrative opportunities for you, or if it leads to more quality shooting opportunities for you. Egos are stupid, and we are not supposed to have them, and we are not supposed to feed them, and it is not supposed to feel satisfying when they are fed......because they are not supposed to matter.

Tom, when you post compliments on others' photos, do you believe you're corrupting the photographers who created them?

Tom Reichner wrote in post #17449403
So, do you crave the public side of photography, or do you hate it? The two statements of yours that I quoted seem to indicate that both are true, in which case you may be conflicted. Being conflicted in that way will not do you any good.

yup, i am conflicted. i want people to like my stuff, but yes, at the same time i see what people do to get the likes and i hate that part. not particular to photography, but for instance my facebook feed is filled with links to videos or articles with stupid lame sensationalist titles that often have zero to do with the content and are only meant to get you curious enough to click. it's so stupid. yet, it works. it works so much so that it gets those folks zillions of views and ultimately $$$ to justify it. and that is often what it takes.

and yeah, sucks to be conflicted.

definitely the later. and i've stayed true to that i think, even though i know beforehand certain pictures will not be liked by many people and will hurt my popularity. and then after doing so i get pissed no one likes it. so.... yes, i recognize that it's almost the definition of insanity. well, anyway, that's my problem.

........ and so, ultimately this is what the question centers on--should we care about what others think of your "art?" i mean, i've heard over and over people saying to do things for yourself, cause doing this for others will only cause you disappointment. and that basic idea is sorta true. but the fact is we live on earth in society, with others, and it's a basic need, scientifically proven, that you must have love to survive. it's a part of who we are. it drives our lives, just as does our hunger for food, whether we admit it or not.

no, i will not compromise my vision for popularity, but it sure does feel better to know people like your stuff. and so the conflict continues for me.

Xyclopx wrote in post #17449462
no, i will not compromise my vision for popularity, but it sure does feel better to know people like your stuff. and so the conflict continues for me.

As stated above, popularity and "likes" are only important if they result in additional opportunities for getting paid, or shooting things you otherwise wouldn't get to. Likes alone are meaningless. "Fake" likes are even more meaningless.


If you're showing your work to people who don't like it, then change your target audience. The people who consume your art might not be the same people that you hang out with as personal friends or professional acquaintances.

Related:
I'm getting a good giggle out of those moon "photos" that are conspicuously lacking reflections.

how 'bout a different question then?:

some of his photos posted can be done without manipulation but would be absurdly difficult. i think i can pull off some of them with a super long lens, multiple exposures, and focus stacking, and researching beforehand exactly when the moon will rise and where, and with a ton of luck that atmospheric conditions are perfect. now, personally i don't think his ps work is perfect cause the moon is a little too clear and often doesn't match the scene exactly, and as noted he's missing the reflections and such things, but assuming he did better...

if the manipulated picture looks identical to what one would be able to accomplish in an "authentic" photo captured with perfect technique, is there any value in going through the immense expense and difficulty to getting the "real" photo?

Xyclopx wrote in post #17449541
if the manipulated picture looks identical to what one would be able to accomplish in an "authentic" photo captured with perfect technique, is there any value in going through the immense expense and difficulty to getting the "real" photo?

Absolutely! After doing all of the work you just described, you will have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and skill - including an excellent understanding of perspective, and how it affects the relative size of the various elements in any composition. These abilities will come into play whenever you photograph anything, and all of your imagery will improve because of it!

You will end up with a highly honed ability to "see" the different things in your compositions, and know just what to do in order to get those things to be depicted at various proportional ratios. The guy whose work you like may have very little knowledge or skill when it comes to doing those things in "real life", rather than at the computer. He has developed a particular set of skills and strengths; likewise, you can develop your own set of skills and strengths.