How much to charge? Am I charging too little?

I had a co-worker of mine ask me to help out with a event shoots where he was/is going to be very busy, so he wasn't going to be available to take the photos himself. The first shoot was a six hour shoot where I did get paid. The second shoot, I assumed I'd be paid but I wasn't. The third shoot was another six hour shoot where I got paid as well.

1) They want eight to 10 usable shots per performance which means I need tot ake 15 to 20 to make sure I grab what they want.
2) They are a non-profit who thinks what they are paying me is pretty high, but I honestly think I'm getting paid far too little.
3) Since they want to use these photos as much as they want to on their website and to be shared by people with access to their website to other people, I'm more or less selling copyright to the photos as well.

Now, for what they are paying me, I don't mind just shooting the photos, going through them, and deciding which ones are good shots and which ones aren't. Then, I'd just either upload those to something like Dropbox or give them a DVD with the photos. To be honest, though, I don't specialize in event photography, so I do need to make some corrections afterward before I'm honestly willing to have my name attached to them in any way.

This past weekend, I did a shoot for them and plan to go through all 550 photos, find the ones that are keepers, correct exposure and white balance where needed, and crop the photo to focus on the actual subject(s). I want to then show them the difference between what the original looked like and what the one I spent time in post processing looked like. Considering there are approximately 550 photos per shoot (over six hours), the post processing is going to take more time than the actual shoot itself.

Again, they are a non-profit, and they were making a HUGE deal about how I couldn't leave my spot because of how much they were paying me for this last shoot (even though I think it's low). That said, after showing them the before and after shots (the truly good examples), I think I'm gonig to have to ask for more money.

So quick specs:
1) Six hour shoots
2) eight to 10 usable shots per performance (somewhere around 25 performances per event)
3) I'm using a co-worker's camera, lens, and flash (one that is in charge of part of these events)
4) Going to spend well over six hours in post processing

My guess is somewhere around $350 to $400 for something like the above (making less than half that now). I think that's about half of what a professional would charge. Do you all think it's too much?

Thanks in advance.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, I think $400 is way too little for that much work.
What I'm reading is 3x 6 hour shoots = 18 hours total plus post processing of 750 images (10 images per performance x 25 performances per event x 3 events).
If you only spend one minute per image, that's 12.5 hours just in post processing. You'll most likely be able to do a lot of it in bulk. If we say 12 hours total for PP, that's 30 hours invested in the work.
$400/30 = $13.33/hr

Travel time? 1 hour
Shoot time- 6 hours
Edit time?- 10 hours

At $400, your paying yourself $23.50 an hour before you pay your taxes.

You aren't selling copyright, your are licensing images for use. You own the copyright of the image unless you sign it away in a contract.

Do you not have any equipment of your own? Any particular reason you are using someone else's gear to take these images?

And of course the comments that you probably already know, but sounds like you may have ignored anyways-

Don't shoot without a contract in place, don't take event photos without liability insurance, don't shoot until you get paid, or the terms of the contract are clear- images aren't delivered until paid in full. Those stickies at the top of the forum are there for a reason.

Are all these images taking place in the same spot at the venue? If so, your editing shouldn't be nearly as drastic- set a custom white balance, and set your exposure prior to the first performance, and use it throughout. Your images can then be culled and batch processed in 30 minutes or so, and you can spend another hour or two fine tuning your deliverable images.

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17491275
Do you not have any equipment of your own? Any particular reason you are using someone else's gear to take these images?

Do I have my own gear? Yeah, I do. I very rarely take photos, though. I would love to go semi-pro, but the money and time just aren't there as I'm an avid amatuer photographer that occasionally gets paid for my work. So, I only have a 300D with battery grip, 50mm f/1.8, a 430EX, and the old kit lens of 18-55 f/4.0-5.6. About a month ago, I was posting on this message board about vacation photography, and the coworker walked up behind me and asked if I was a photographer. I explained that I've spent a lot of time teaching myself and have gone to a couple of workshops. I also asked if he wanted to see some photos of mine (things I would put in my portfolio). He was impressed enough to offer me a job taking photos at this event. He happens to own a 5D MkIII, EF 24-105 f/4L IS, EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS. and a 580EX. When I told him that my equipment is not good at all, he offered to let me use his. That's the reason I use his his equipment over mine.

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17491275
Don't shoot without a contract in place, don't take event photos without liability insurance, don't shoot until you get paid, or the terms of the contract are clear- images aren't delivered until paid in full. Those stickies at the top of the forum are there for a reason.

To preface this, I'm not an event photographer, so I'm a complete newbie to this. While I have been the photographer at several family events in the past, my self training as well as workshops have been in Model/Glamour.

Being that it's a coworker, and he asked me to help out...and, he said he said they'd pay me, I guess we did have a verbal contract. Both times, I got paid before I delivered the final photos. There hasn't been a contract (other than spoken) on either occasion.

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17491275
Are all these images taking place in the same spot at the venue? If so, your editing shouldn't be nearly as drastic- set a custom white balance, and set your exposure prior to the first performance, and use it throughout. Your images can then be culled and batch processed in 30 minutes or so, and you can spend another hour or two fine tuning your deliverable images.

Yes, all the photos are taken in the same location... but not always in the same light. There is a very large stage that people move all over. Lighting and white balance can change depending on where they are on stage as no stage I've ever seen is equally lit across the whole thing. Also, they do close the curtain on the stage a lot. Going from a lit wood floor stage with some kind of background (dark or light) to a much smaller stage with a very deep, dark red curtain as your background makes it very difficult to use the same exposure and white balance for each shot.

Not sure how friendly you are with your coworker, but I wouldn't be comfortable shooting an event at a public space without a contract or insurance. Especially since you mentioned you shot for them three times already and only got paid for two of them.

Let's say someone trips and bangs their head on your coworkers camera while you are holding it, and decides to sue the organization and you. Are you going to be okay paying for their medical bills and all the attorney fees? And for the broken equipment?

The way I see it, you have two choices- lower the amount of work you are doing to make it commensurate with the amount you are being paid, or ask to be paid at a higher rate. Maybe you feel $200 is the appropriate amount if you are simply taking the images during the event on a borrowed camera, and walking away, letting someone else do the editing. If you feel you are being underpaid, ask for more and explain why. Non-profit does not mean can't afford to pay the going rate for things.

As far as insurance goes, there are tons of people who bring DSLRs and digital camcorders to these events as their kids are in them. The chance that someone might trip over a spectator's camera is just as likely as someone tripping over me. I can't promise anything since there are only two guarantees in life (three if you play Magic: The Gathering), but if someone tripped over any person and the person and/or gear was damaged, I honestly don't think anyone would sue anyone simply because it could be the person suing that gets sued next time. Again, I know I can't guarantee that, but I am comfortable enough in knowing this person and the event that I don't see anyone getting sued.

If it was as simple as taking photos, getting paid, handing him the card, and walking away, I'd be comfortable at the rate they are paying me now. But, as part of our agreement, I have to go through all the photos I took and make sure all the bad ones (motion blur, accidental tilt, etc.) are deleted and the rest uploaded. That's the base. Then, there's what I want my name one. While I don't put a copyright stamp on any of these images so that they can use them however they want, my name and reputation as a photographer is on each and every one of those photos. And, if I just take 550 photos and hand it over to someone else to edit or not edit and throw up on a website, my reputation could end up being soured. When I go about correcting exposure, and cropping to make sure the subject is the main focus of the photo, things look dramatically better. Those I want my name on as I figure my reputation as a photographer is fairly important even if I don't get to take too many photos.

I do plan to do my best to get to all of the photos in this set and do any needed post processing. Then, I want to print out about 10 "before" shots and 10 "after" shots. I'll let them know if they want the "after" shots, it's going to cost them at least twice as much as I'm being paid now if not more. And, I'm going to need more time for turnaround.

you are NOT 'selling them your Copyright', you are granting them the right to use the photos to promote themselves. YOU still own the photos and potentially could sell the rights to use the photos to someone else as well.

I would tell them that they must post visibly on their web site:

• creditting you with the photography, and
  
• (most importantly) the fact that any/all uses by others (you did state, 'to be shared by people with access to their website to other people') are solely for non-commercial purposes other than for promotion of (the non-profit who is paying you).
  

While there are lots of people that may be walking around with a camera- you are in this instance a hired professional walking around with a camera, which carries more liability than a random person walking around with a camera. If the venue or company gets sued over something that happens, they are going to name you as the person responsible.

I'm just telling you my feelings on the issue- I'm not going to tell you what you have to do. Regardless of how close I am to someone, and even if the cost of the work I'm doing is zero (say for a friend or charity I believe in), I would have a signed contract, and I'd have appropriate insurance for a public venue. I know everyone isn't that way- that's just my tolerance for risk.

It's always tricky negotiating the price upwards on something after you've already done it a few times- good luck. Let them know the amount of time and effort it takes you to complete the assignment, and what you feel is an appropriate amount. Give them details and a time breakdown- many non-photographers don't understand the time that goes into editing.

You need to let your buddy do the paperwork and insurance and have him hand you a check because it seems you are in way over your head. Not seeming to care about a contract or insurance is irresponsible. Sure many parents are in the crowd taking shots but THEY ARE NOT GETTING PAID. If for any reason something happens... and it MAY be a minuscule chance... you will get sued. Cover your butt or just say no and move on. Not trying to be a dick but I don't think you've thought this out much. There are plenty of people on this board who view what you are doing as taking money from their pockets. I don't think they will respond with any lighter of recommendations. Sorry.

It's not for a charity at all. It is a non-profit, but not for a charity. If it was a charity that I was behind or was a part of, I probably wouldn't charge at all.

Day rate for shooting, 1/2 day rate for processing. I think your processing time could probably speed up a bit with a better workflow, but that's another discussion to be had all together.

My day rate is well more than $500, so $400 would be far too little to do this gig. Even if it's a charity, you got bills to pay. I could see giving a slight discount to a charity I believed in, and possibly only charging the day rate for shooting and no fee for processing. But again, that's still above the $400 you're suggesting being paid.

FarmerTed1971 wrote in post #17491506
Not trying to be a dick but I don't think you've thought this out much.

As I've stated before, I'm a Fashion/Glamour photographer. I'm not an event photographer. So, you're right, I haven't thought this out much. I'm not sure why you would assume that a Fashion/Glamour photographer would think about these things.

FarmerTed1971 wrote in post #17491506
There are plenty of people on this board who view what you are doing as taking money from their pockets. I don't think they will respond with any lighter of recommendations. Sorry.

Any professional photographer or photographer looking to build a client base to be come semi-pro or pro would not even consider this job for what it pays and the amount of time it takes in both shooting and post processing. I'm pretty sure, a professional event photographer would charge about four times as much if not a little more. I'm not taking any money out of anyone's pockets. This non-profit did not put out an ad for a photographer, and then found out I would do it cheaper and used me instead. They used to have someone who would do the shoots, but he is no longer with them. They needed a replacement, and I just happened to be at the right place at the right time (or possibly wrong place at the wrong time).

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17491497
It's always tricky negotiating the price upwards on something after you've already done it a few times- good luck. Let them know the amount of time and effort it takes you to complete the assignment, and what you feel is an appropriate amount. Give them details and a time breakdown- many non-photographers don't understand the time that goes into editing.

I will look into insurance. I appreciate that advice. As far as renegotiating price... it's simply a matter of me doing the post processing work or not doing it. The original agreement did not include post processing. I just did it this time to give them a taste of what I can do. Next time I am asked to take photos for this non-profit, I will let them know that I'll honor the original agreement. If they want post processing done, I'll quote them a price for both. If they want post processing and decide that I'm simply too expensive to use anymore, so be it. This is just a side job. I enjoy taking photos, but if I'm going to really get into it, it'll have to be in my main field (which isn't event photography).

JacobPhoto wrote in post #17492971
Day rate for shooting, 1/2 day rate for processing. I think your processing time could probably speed up a bit with a better workflow, but that's another discussion to be had all together.

You are 100% correct. I'm not used to shooting under these circumstances. I'm used to shooting in sunlight or with a main, fill, and hair light. I'm a Fashion/Glamour photographer not an event photographer. Also, my computers are extremely outdated. I will eventually upgrade, but at this current moment, I really have no reason to. It takes forever to post process on a Black MacBook vintage 2006. A new, faster computer with about four times as much RAM would make things go A LOT faster as well.

While I know this probably isn't a good idea, I have thought of asking them to buy me a new computer if they really want me to do post processing on the kind of time crunch they always put me under.

Edit: It literally takes somewhere between two and three hours to import and create standard previews for 550 RAW photos from a fast SDHC card. It takes about the same amount of time to export the photos as it does to import. So, essentially, six hours of my post processing time is spent in just importing and exporting. That doesn't even begin to get into exposure correction, white balance correction, any color correction of needed.

disclaimer, i only read the first post.

6 hours is a day, meaning, you won't be able to do anything else that day … so it's a day. If you are, or want to be a pro, you figure how many days you can shoot a week, keeping in mind AT LEAST as many hours away from the event as actually at the event. So lets say each week you do three 6 hour events and 8 hours for each outside of the event.

(6x3) + (8x3)

18 + 24 = 42 hours

now figure how much you need to earn a living, buy equipment and all that other crap. divide that out by the number of weeks in a year.

all the other stuff like following up on payments, finding new work, charging batteries, sweeping the floor, posting on POTN, etc is outside that 42 hours.

that's a rough estimate of what pros see. you get to decide what you want to do and how you want to present your services.


also, a pro would tell a client that expecting 10 shots from 25 different performances is maybe a bit absurd. not one single person is going to look at 250 pictures. not one.

i like to post about 10 an hour for most events. I did a 14 hour event an only posted about 65.