Need a Pro's advice.

I'm not a pro, but have aspirations of part time work someday. There was no wildlife on the beach, so I shot some surfers who happened to be there and who welcomed me to do so. They informed me that they run a surf school, provided an email address and would be happy to post my photos to get my name out there. Photos weren't up to par in terms of image quality (see below), but I put my copywrite in the middle and emailed the best ones to one of the surfers anyway, knowing full well that he might post them to his website. He was blown away with some of them and is asking if I could move the watermark to the side so he can share the 10 best with "bigger social surf media". I've asked for an explanation of this. I'm leaning towards just doing it out of the goodness of my heart, but I'm wondering if there might still be an opportunity for compensation. Has that ship sailed, or might there be opportunity from the "bigger social surf media". I think asking the surf school for compensation at this stage isn't proper. Thoughts?

Perhaps go sit down with them and figure out where they would like to go with their business in the next 1-5 years? If you get in early you might find yourself a really good client that you can both prosper from with a continuing relationship.

I'm not a pro, but if it was me (and I was like you with it NOT being my full-time gig) I'd let them use some of the work in order to start said relationship. Make sure you get photo credit where it is available.

At this point you need to make sure your work that is going to be seen is the best you can do. Don't release anything mediocre. If you are not really happy with the results don't put them out there with your name attached because it isn't going to get you anywhere. You need to Wow the perspective customer... show him there is something there worth hiring.

Just my two cents.

I would go one of two ways with this.
Like Farmer said, allow them to use them with accreditation to you, either by you having your copyright in the corner instead, or by them putting "Photo by: ......" whenever they use it.

The other option I would do is the same as above, except charge them a fee. They wouldn't buy the copyrights, just the right to use it commercially.

In both cases have them sign a contract and, I use, the Creative Commons License: Attribution-NoDerivs CC BY-ND
This license allows for redistribution, commercial and non-commercial, as long as it is passed along unchanged and in whole, with credit to you.

Here is the link to the creative commons site. https://creativecommon​s.org/licenses/

I did this with Kelsey Poe from 'The Bachelor' and a few other local businesses. They all seem to like this option. It saves them money from buying the copyrights, and I sell it to them as I am giving them a deal so they are happy. You can also say "I normally charge X but because you are a new client and I want to continue this relationship, I will do this one time deal for you" Or something to that effect.

The first pro "secret" is to never show my crappy images to anyone. I'll do that here sometimes, but I'm retired & it's for (hopefully) a shared learning experience. I still get flack for them, but that's the way the world works. ; )
As for, " I'm wondering if there might still be an opportunity for compensation. Has that ship sailed,...?" Considering the image that you posted, IMO the ship should have never left port unless it was on it's way to the recycle bin. It's almost a very nice shot. But you don't want to become known for "almost images" do you?

So, if the 10 best are a lot better than that one, then I might let him post them. But not if they aren't. This is where the term "Re-shoot" comes in. Since you're learning how to shoot them, it's no big deal. I'm sure that you learned from the experience. Take what you learned, shoot some kick a.. images, & go on from there. Everyone has gone through it, & it does get easier.

The image quality in the sample you posted doesn't satisfy you, but it may well satisfy the surfers you met. They won't judge images the same way you do. This photo looks dramatic despite its technical flaws. It may have commercial value for that reason.

In your watermark, it might be best to use a copyright symbol that looks more like a circled C and can't be mistaken for a flourish or an "at" sign.

FarmerTed1971 wrote in post #17529293
Perhaps go sit down with them and figure out where they would like to go with their business in the next 1-5 years? If you get in early you might find yourself a really good client that you can both prosper from with a continuing relationship.....

Excellent idea. Unfortunately, it's likely that I will be leaving the area very soon.

BlakeC wrote in post #17529304
I would go one of two ways with this.

The other option I would do is the same as above, except charge them a fee. They wouldn't buy the copyrights, just the right to use it commercially.

In both cases have them sign a contract and, I use, the Creative Commons License: Attribution-NoDerivs CC BY-ND
This license allows for redistribution, commercial and non-commercial, as long as it is passed along unchanged and in whole, with credit to you.

Here is the link to the creative commons site. https://creativecommon​s.org/licenses/
.

Over 10 years ago, after a long days work with a subcontractor that I had used and respected for years, from his truck window he shouted, "Do you like peanut MMs". Yes, I exclaimed! After handing me the large bag he said, That'll be $5. He was selling them for his daughter and I fell for it completely. We both laughed, but I felt taken. I won't ask someone for money after the fact. Compensation expectations need to be discussed before the shoot.

Awesome info regarding Creative Commons. Thanks.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #17529313
...So, if the 10 best are a lot better than that one, then I might let him post them. But not if they aren't. This is where the term "Re-shoot" comes in. Since you're learning how to shoot them, it's no big deal. I'm sure that you learned from the experience. Take what you learned, shoot some kick a.. images, & go on from there. Everyone has gone through it, & it does get easier.

Good idea, but unfortunetly, we can't reproduce the unusual wind and wave conditions of that day. I'm still not confortable shooting backlit subjects. Working on that some.

Just heard back from him. He plans to "...send tag these on instagram surfing accounts which they may decide to tag to a larger audience if they like them, and would send them to ESM.com and swellinfo.com." He also let me know when they will be going out again. Opportunity knocks.

Larry Johnson wrote in post #17529533
Good idea, but unfortunetly, we can't reproduce the unusual wind and wave conditions of that day. I'm still not confortable shooting backlit subjects. Working on that some.

lol....I guess it depends on your exact conversation before hand. It's not like you said before hand, "I will take photos and you can use them commercially for free." (Unless you did). I go to track meets and parents ask me to get photos of their kids. They then see them on my site and order them. I feel like that's just how it works. Most people expect to have to pay a photographer for the use of their photos. With your copyright mark over the middle of it, they KNOW they need to be paying you to use your photo. Why else would you have it on there other than to prevent people from using it commercially. They know what they are doing and they are trying to get a free photo out of you. It's obviously up to you. If you don't think you would feel good about charging them, then you could follow that creative commons license I showed you and not charge them.

As for the quality of the photo. It's a matter of opinion. Most non-photographers are more easily impressed than we are by our own photos. It comes down to if you are ok with it representing you and if your client is happy.

However you decide to go about this, you should try to continue the relationship with them; if you enjoy this sort of photography.

I like peanut M&M's.

Larry Johnson wrote in post #17529533
I'm still not confortable shooting backlit subjects. Working on that some.

You can work on it in your back yard as well as you can out near the water. Try this: Need an exposure crutch?

Why?: Post #47

I think we need to define better 'commercial' as used in a number of replies already, as the loosely used term is quite different from the legally enforceable one, as defined by 'terms of use':

1. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they use it for editorial purposes in an article about surfing
   
2. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they use it to promote their business (web site, brochures or other printed media)
   
3. You provide images to Enterprise A, at some negotiated fee to them and they use it to promote their business (web site, brochures or other printed media)
   
4. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they sell the photos for use as decor
   
5. You provide images to Enterprise A, at some price to them and they resell the photos for use as decor
   

• you get a credit for the photography, or
  
• your watermark stays on the photography
  

Wilt wrote in post #17529727
I think we need to define better 'commercial' as used in a number of replies already, as the loosely used term is quite different from the legally enforceable one, as defined by 'terms of use':

1. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they use it for editorial purposes in an article about surfing
   
2. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they use it to promote their business (web site, brochures or other printed media)
   
3. You provide images to Enterprise A, at some negotiated fee to them and they use it to promote their business (web site, brochures or other printed media)
   
4. You provide images to Enterprise A, at no cost to them and they sell the photos for use as decor
   
5. You provide images to Enterprise A, at some price to them and they resell the photos for use as decor
   

#2 and #3 are for 'commercial purposes'; #1, #4, and #5 are not 'for commercial purposes'
You MUST have written permission from any people in the photos (if recognizable) for #2 and #3 'for commercial uses', but not for #1 or #4 or #5.

So relative to your OP, there is need for a more precise definition of the 'terms of use'
With no money changing hands, one has to be unbending that either

• you get a credit for the photography, or
  
• your watermark stays on the photography
  

...no matter where the photo appears, for Enterprise A or for Enterprise B or C or...(wherever)

great breakdown! So hard to explain this to people...Thanks!!
I've shot a lot of surfing and made very little $$ ( guy's deep in barrels..) and they always want the logos removed...
If you can work a deal with school for shoot and prints..learn the waves, make quick cash best option..
cheers Darrin

proimages wrote in post #17529830
great breakdown! So hard to explain this to people...Thanks!!
I've shot a lot of surfing and made very little $$ ( guy's deep in barrels..) and they always want the logos removed...
If you can work a deal with school for shoot and prints..learn the waves, make quick cash best option..
cheers Darrin

The breakdown is indeed very useful information. Thanks for the explanation Wilt.
As it turns out, the surfer I spoke with doesn't run the school any longer, but keeps its' email address. There is no longer a business. He's never asked me to remove my copywrite. In fact, he stated that he had no intention of doing so and would provide credit.

Images from yesterday evening's shoot with subject front lit were much better than the initial backlight images. The surfer offered me fresh clams in exchanged for photos. Funny, native people used clam shells as a type of currency in previous times. I'll let y'all know how they taste.

Normally when I heard of people getting paid in 'clams', I never took it literally.

BlakeC wrote in post #17529304
I would go one of two ways with this.
Like Farmer said, allow them to use them with accreditation to you, either by you having your copyright in the corner instead, or by them putting "Photo by: ......" whenever they use it.

The other option I would do is the same as above, except charge them a fee. They wouldn't buy the copyrights, just the right to use it commercially.

In both cases have them sign a contract and, I use, the Creative Commons License: Attribution-NoDerivs CC BY-ND
This license allows for redistribution, commercial and non-commercial, as long as it is passed along unchanged and in whole, with credit to you.

Here is the link to the creative commons site. https://creativecommon​s.org/licenses/

I did this with Kelsey Poe from 'The Bachelor' and a few other local businesses. They all seem to like this option. It saves them money from buying the copyrights, and I sell it to them as I am giving them a deal so they are happy. You can also say "I normally charge X but because you are a new client and I want to continue this relationship, I will do this one time deal for you" Or something to that effect.

Blake,
I understand your idea of creative Commons, but once you sign, doesn't it put creative Commons license onto the image for everyone, and not just your intended customer?

To the OP, I suggest full invoice and usage right be signed with your prospective customers to begin their education and establish value on licensing photos. Discounting the bottom line can then reflect the individual circumstances.

gschlact wrote in post #17531267
Blake,
I understand your idea of creative Commons, but once you sign, doesn't it put creative Commons license onto the image for everyone, and not just your intended customer?

Yes. In my opinion, the Creative Commons license is a horrible idea for anyone seeking compensation, and I don't believe any true pro would ever consider using such a "free for all" usage agreement. It exists for amateurs and hobbyists who would like some (worthless) recognition, not for pros who would like some money.

If you do come to terms with a licensing agreement with the school, be sure that your agreement specifically says that it does not extend to any third party; in other words, they are not permitted to pass the images on to any one else, and no one else is allowed to use the images unless they also sign a separate agreement with you. In other words, what you want is the exact opposite of what the Creative Commons license provides. You should not want any other entity to use any of your images in any way unless they pay you money.