Dos and don'ts of model and sunset in frame.

Going to be shooting a model soon with the sunset as a background.
Wondering what I should and shouldn't be doing.
Also where to position the horizon and sun in a pleasing place.

If you don't want your model silhouetted, you're going to need a fill flash.

joedlh wrote in post #17575783
If you don't want your model silhouetted, you're going to need a fill flash.

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention I will be using a single off camera flash.

That setup is an easy recipe for dramatic images. Just keep in mind that you are going to be manipulating 2 different exposure values. You are going to have to underexpose the ambient to saturate the colors of the sunset. The flash provides the foreground light. One issue is that the background light will be warm orange while your flash will be quite white in contrast. You mighr consider a gel for your flash, a 1/2 or 1/4 CTO would probably work.

gonzogolf wrote in post #17575802
That setup is an easy recipe for dramatic images. Just keep in mind that you are going to be manipulating 2 different exposure values. You are going to have to underexpose the ambient to saturate the colors of the sunset. The flash provides the foreground light. One issue is that the background light will be warm orange while your flash will be quite white in contrast. You mighr consider a gel for your flash, a 1/2 or 1/4 CTO would probably work.

Oh the smile to my face that I can put my gels (Rogue kit) to use I have those gels, what I'm wondering is I planned on using a small 8"X12" Fotodiox softbox that attaches to the face of the flash or I have a 32" Wescott white umbrella (wind might be a issue). Or would I need a diffuser at all? If I gel the flash CTO and either bounce or shoot through a white umbrella, will it maintain color? Also should I do flash exposure compensation for the value of the CTO gels? Thank goodness you said that, I for sure would have left the gels at home!

iroctd wrote in post #17575815
Oh the smile to my face that I can put my gels (Rogue kit) to use I have those gels, what I'm wondering is I planned on using a small 8"X12" Fotodiox softbox that attaches to the face of the flash or I have a 32" Wescott white umbrella (wind might be a issue). Or would I need a diffuser at all? If I gel the flash CTO and either bounce or shoot through a white umbrella, will it maintain color? Also should I do flash exposure compensation for the value of the CTO gels? Thank goodness you said that, I for sure would have left the gels at home!

It will maintain the colour, and yes, you need to compensate for the gel. The Rogue gels have printed on them by how many stops they reduce the light, so just up the flash power by that value.

Another thought, I have a Whibal grey card. It seems to me since the light source will be behind the subject/model and card that all I need to do is worry about the flash not the ambient light. I would be using it in post production to set the white balance. Does this get complicated now that I'm using a CTO gel on the flash?

Heya,

iroctd wrote in post #17575779
Going to be shooting a model soon with the sunset as a background.
Wondering what I should and shouldn't be doing.
Also where to position the horizon and sun in a pleasing place.

This depends on what you want to achieve. Fully backlit by the sunset will be your "rim" and make their hair explode with light. Out of frame (sun) will help prevent unwanted flare and can calm down the loss of contrast from shooting directly into a light source (this is lens dependent though, some lenses can do this fine, others flare and the whole image loses contrast and is a golden warm color of haze). Definitely don't put the horizon at their shoulders or face. I find that the more pleasing way to use sunsets is to drop down and use a perspective from below so that you can force the horizon lower into the frame, get more sky (which is what you want anyways) and it also helps you to control what's actually in the frame when you stop down for ambient exposure, which results in that long depth of field. You can comfortably shoot at F8~F16 from a lower perspective, with sky and immediate surrounding in focus, and not worry about whatever is in the distant horizon as you can drop it below the field of view just by getting lower than the subject.

Camera settings to ambient exposure (unless you're using ND filters, or a HSS flash, you'll have to stop down aperture).
Flash settings to fill or expose subject.
Gel to blend the flash temperature (cooler naturally) to ambient white balance (in this case a CTO gel).

iroctd wrote in post #17575815
Oh the smile to my face that I can put my gels (Rogue kit) to use I have those gels, what I'm wondering is I planned on using a small 8"X12" Fotodiox softbox that attaches to the face of the flash or I have a 32" Wescott white umbrella (wind might be a issue). Or would I need a diffuser at all? If I gel the flash CTO and either bounce or shoot through a white umbrella, will it maintain color? Also should I do flash exposure compensation for the value of the CTO gels? Thank goodness you said that, I for sure would have left the gels at home!

I would use probably the 1/2 CTO, depending on the sky. If you want the sky warmer than your subject, use less CTO. If you want them to be very close to similar temperature exposure, you may want to use a full CTO gel. I would stress using the largest modifier you have, as close to the subject as possible, to get the softest, evenest light. A close range shoot through umbrella would be great. Also, closer will help with the light loss from using the gels (yes you have to compensate, or you will underexpose). The modifier will not change the temperature of the flash, so you bounce or shoot through is fine, your umbrella won't change it. If wind is an issue, take some bungees & stakes and make your umbrella stand hold firm (or better yet, if you have an assistant, they can just hold it out).

***

Or you can get really dramatic and wait until after sunset. I recently waited until after near dark to do a shot with my daughter (whom wanted to play outside even after dark, so we obliged). I used a prop to help mask the dark horizon as bit, and camera settings were to ambient light of the sky (and down a good stop or more for dramatic effect) and mixed in a gel'd flash (camera left in a softbox) to exposure her fully. And I did it at F2, but could have done it at F8 or less (I didn't want the tree horizon in focus even though it was nearly dark):

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/t7DZ​as

MalVeauX wrote in post #17575894
Also, closer will help with the light loss from using the gels (yes you have to compensate, or you will underexpose).

If I'm using ETTL will it automatically compensate?

iroctd wrote in post #17575921
If I'm using ETTL will it automatically compensate?

Heya,

Yes, but it may not do it the way you prefer. You may have to chimp a shot, and then dial in some exposure compensation (at close range, I'm betting you'll want to dial EC down a touch). Also note, ETTL will attempt to expose ambient background if it's there and depending on how you're metering, etc. I'd shoot manual frankly.

Very best,

ETTL will compensate for the minor bit of adjustment required by the gel. But as mentioned above this is one of the times that ETTL is challenged. I'm assuming that hou know you need to have the camera in manual becuase the base exposure will need to be manipulated consideranly. Then ride the exposure compensation hard to adjust for the contrast between the mostly dark scene and the bright subject. ETTL will get you in the park, but it will likely require lots of fine tuning. Manual flash isnt that hard and once you dial in your first exposure if your flash to subject distance doesnt change much you will be surprised how easy it is and your results are more consistent sj8t to sjot.

MalVeauX wrote in post #17575932
Heya,

Yes, but it may not do it the way you prefer. You may have to chimp a shot, and then dial in some exposure compensation (at close range, I'm betting you'll want to dial EC down a touch). Also note, ETTL will attempt to expose ambient background if it's there and depending on how you're metering, etc. I'd shoot manual frankly.

Very best,

I agree with manual camera & flash. I've seen a video where you can (on Canon) be in Av mode and use exposure comp & flash exposure comp to take care of ambient and flash light. But if I need help, and the help is a nikon shooter who does manual, I think i'll relate better in manual terms. Gotta do some hands on testing today/tonight with the camera & flash. I can't remember if you can control a speedlite in manual mode from the back of the camera. It is a lot to fill your head with, not that bad though, I feel good about it. The only one hard variable is the constant changing light conditions.

Many, many thanks to all you guys. I've lurked more than I've posted and all of it is very appreciated!


One curious side question ... with a umbrella and a CTO gel reducing flash output, would it be better to put two of the same speedlites next to each other in one umbrella? (this is just food for thought, gotta keep things simple right now while I learn)

iroctd wrote in post #17575984
I agree with manual camera & flash. I've seen a video where you can (on Canon) be in Av mode and use exposure comp & flash exposure comp to take care of ambient and flash light. But if I need help, and the help is a nikon shooter who does manual, I think i'll relate better in manual terms. Gotta do some hands on testing today/tonight with the camera & flash. I can't remember if you can control a speedlite in manual mode from the back of the camera. It is a lot to fill your head with, not that bad though, I feel good about it. The only one hard variable is the constant changing light conditions.

Many, many thanks to all you guys. I've lurked more than I've posted and all of it is very appreciated!

One curious side question ... with a umbrella and a CTO gel reducing flash output, would it be better to put two of the same speedlites next to each other in one umbrella? (this is just food for thought, gotta keep things simple right now while I learn)

Heya,

Controlling the flash off camera depends on the transceiver/trigger and the flash. So that's specific to the devices being used.

Your speedlite at sunset is going to still be pretty powerful in terms of being used as a fill. You will lose a half to full stop of power using the Gel depending on which one you use, and you'll lose a little from the modifier (umbrella), but that's ok, you want it to be soft and even probably, and the closer it is, the better for that, so you will find you may not need full power on that flash anyways. I would test exposure and flash power settings before you do the shoot, so that you know about where you need to be to start, and then go from there.

For example, if using normal flash (manual) and normal sync speed at sunset (assuming earlier and still bright), you may end up at 1/200s (synch speed, substitute whatever your camera's fastest synch speed is), ISO 100 (base), and then whatever aperture it takes to get ambient light exposure where you want it (F8~F16 potentially, depending on if you want normal exposure, or if you want to drop ambient exposure a little so that your flash exposure on the subject isolates them a little more). Then experiment with distance of flash source to subject, and the power needed to expose them roughly where you want them. Closer is better for the light.

Very best,

gonzogolf wrote in post #17575977
ETTL will compensate for the minor bit of adjustment required by the gel. But as mentioned above this is one of the times that ETTL is challenged. I'm assuming that hou know you need to have the camera in manual becuase the base exposure will need to be manipulated consideranly. Then ride the exposure compensation hard to adjust for the contrast between the mostly dark scene and the bright subject. ETTL will get you in the park, but it will likely require lots of fine tuning. Manual flash isnt that hard and once you dial in your first exposure if your flash to subject distance doesnt change much you will be surprised how easy it is and your results are more consistent sj8t to sjot.

I think you're right. Definitely going to use manual. I've gotta really focus this time, other times I tend to forget one thing and notice it afterwards, going to try and break that habit.

Don't bother with semi-auto modes. They're more trouble and confusion than they're worth. The rationale is to let the camera 'help' you by allowing it to control one of two variables so that you worry only about one; well, once you start introducing compensation, guess what it is you're doing? Yes, you're back to controlling two variables, so what's the advantage?

Stick to manual, both with camera and lights.

For now you'll have to chimp, but later on, a lightmeter would be an invaluable tool. I'm hardly without mine and don't agonise about exposure problems.