Legitimately Torn Between APS-C and Full Frame Options

Excellent information all around in this thread. Not to hi-jack the thread but will I see much of a difference upgrading from an old 5D to a new 6D. I bought an old 5D about two years ago and although it takes OK pictures it doesn't even seem to take as good as pictures as my 70D, not to mention I have crap on the sensor I just can't seem to clean off. Just curious and appreciate any and all replies in advance.

I moved my full frame body from 5Dc to 6D. HUGE. Just HUGE.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17611704
I moved my full frame body from 5Dc to 6D. HUGE. Just HUGE.

THIS. Absolutely night and day, especially in the noise department. The difference in sensor technology was unfathomable.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17611329
Wait a minute! My T1i would prioritize metering to any selected focus point. I've also had the 5D, 6D, XSi, Elan 7Ne, and Elan 7 that do the same thing. I am POSITIVE the 5D3 prioritizes the selected AF point when using a peripheral point. But it doesn't do that when you select a zone. Please tell me the above is a typo or a misunderstanding.

Prioritizing the Evaluative metering zones to the AF zones ≠ Spot meter zone same as AF zone

Evaluative always pays attention to ALL zones, but biases the reading (by a never-revealed percentage of calculation) to the AF zones.

In my earlier post, I intended to specify Spot mode, but neglected to...I always use Spot mode, Evaluation is a NEVER-Ever-USE mode because I cannot PREDICT with accuracy how much the adjacent zones will screw up the metering of the AF zone target areas! I does not normally exist in my mind, in the context of Canon Evaluative !

Spot is PERFECTLY predictable...if you understand and evaluate how much the target is brighter/darker than 18% grey tonality, you know exactly what the meter will do! If your target is +1.66EV brigher (light grey), unless you 'compensate' your reading the meter will tell you to UNDERexpose by -1.66EV! Anyone knowledgeable about the Zone System of exposure (forget the darkroom antics...you can't do that with color emulsions when you send stuff out!) can evaluate a reading and tell you how to adjust, by how much, to obtain a certain result as captured on film. Spot metering was a Zone practioner's principle tool!

5dc to 6d, high ISO wise I agree but overall 5dc is still very very good for that old camera. I feel bad for having sold mine for like $450.

Wilt wrote in post #17611722
Prioritizing the Evaluative metering zones to the AF zones ≠ Spot meter zone same as AF zone

Evaluative always pays attention to ALL zones, but biases the reading (by a never-revealed percentage of calculation) to the AF zones.

In my earlier post, I intended to specify Spot mode, but neglected to...I always use Spot mode, Evaluation is a NEVER-Ever-USE mode because I cannot PREDICT with accuracy how much the adjacent zones will screw up the metering of the AF zone target areas! I does not normally exist in my mind, in the context of Canon Evaluative !

Spot is PERFECTLY predictable...if you understand and evaluate how much the target is brighter/darker than 18% grey tonality, you know exactly what the meter will do! If your target is +1.66EV brigher (light grey), unless you 'compensate' your reading the meter will tell you to UNDERexpose by -1.66EV! Anyone knowledgeable about the Zone System of exposure (forget the darkroom antics...you can't do that with color emulsions when you send stuff out!) can evaluate a reading and tell you how to adjust, by how much, to obtain a certain result as captured on film. Spot metering was a Zone practioner's principle tool!

I guess it comes down to what one gets used to. I tried spot. I found it too influenced by the remainder of the frame, kinda of a 'how big is the spot' issue. I also find that it being tied to the center spot a hindrance. I find that if forces meter & exposure lock. All of those problems are eliminated by Evaluative. I could never make spot work. The added complication is learning two modes: spot and evaluative. I decided it was easier to dial in EC from a known metering method. That is how I grew up. I always knew my film camera was using a CWA-like method. I just had to adjust from there. Same with Evaluative. I know how it behaves. It is how I use my cameras. I can dial in EC faster than I can change to spot, re-frame to get the subject in the center, re-frame again, and shoot.

I agree that spot-metering tied to the in-use AF-point would be a huge improvement. Why? Because it would behave more like Evaluative does out of the box. Would I use it if I had it? No. I already know how to accomplish that in evaluative. I am not suggesting my method(s) work for everyone. But they do work for me.

Lastly, had you mentioned Spot in your post, I would have understood what you meant. I read your post as the 5D3 is not capable of adjusting the exposure according to the AF point (zone) used. In spot, you are correct, the camera can't do that. In Evaluative, it does that by default. I know Spot is stuck to the center point on most cameras. That is part of why I find it more of a hindrance than a help.

I find your statement about PERFECTLY predictable to be exactly what I would say about Evaluative. Different strokes, I suppose.

bobbyz wrote in post #17611773
5dc to 6d, high ISO wise I agree but overall 5dc is still very very good for that old camera. I feel bad for having sold mine for like $450.

I agree. I sold my 5Dc cheap, too. I didn't need the money. I wish I'd kept it. I've made a few $400-450 offers a few listed here. No luck yet. Canon dropping support/repairs for it makes me have second thoughts.

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17611781
I find your statement about PERFECTLY predictable to be exactly what I would say about Evaluative. Different strokes, I suppose.

George, not trying to be argumentative at all, but merely using a situation which fools the meter in Evaluative, but which I can meter perfectly in Spot. So what EC would you dial in (or what technique would you usually use), in order to render the target at its inherent (middle grey) brightness rather than the dark grey?...

(This was actually shot in Center mode metering, with no exposure compensation, and I am presenting this so that you do not have an Evaluative exposure EXIF nor any ability to judge by visual assesment of the resulting shot to determine the EC offset.)

Wilt wrote in post #17612013
George, not trying to be argumentative at all, but merely using a situation which fools the meter in Evaluative, but which I can meter perfectly in Spot. So what EC would you dial in (or what technique would you usually use), in order to render the target at its inherent (middle grey) brightness rather than the dark grey?...

(This was actually shot in Center mode metering, with no exposure compensation, and I am presenting this so that you do not have an Evaluative exposure EXIF nor any ability to judge by visual assesment of the resulting shot to determine the EC offset.)

I'll show you the actual Evaluative mode exposure after your reply, and then show you the Spot exposure as well, and all shots will contain the actual exposure data in the EXIF.

Wilt, I usually don't assume someone is being argumentative just because we have a difference of opinion. If the exchange is cordial and the information meaningful, I am always (I hope) willing to learn from those who know more than I do. That is why I am here. I think you've got something to teach me, here. Please read on.

I have to admit, that is a challenging frame to meter. I agree with you that Evaluative would not get a decently exposed book (tall square thing) all by itself. For this scene, I would be forced to recompose. I would lower the camera (aim more downward, toward the deck), meter, and use Exposure Lock. Depending upon how much of the sky I could get out of the frame, I'd dial in some +E/C. I think making a specific guess on a scene I can't see in person is a bit like walking into a bear's den.

Typing the paragraph above made me realize that I am doing EXACTLY what I explained several posts ago. I am using the same technique I employed with my film cameras 40 years ago. This reminds me of trying to make a point, and in the middle of my explanation, realizing just how wrong I am. I am not so much using Evaluative mode as I am using Evaluative mode exactly like I used to use the CWA of my Yashica FX3-S2k. I have not 'learned how Evaluative works', so much as I have adapted Evaluative to the way I did things before. Perhaps it is time for this old dog to learn a new trick. Please, proceed.

Thanks George,

OK, here is the original Evaluative metered shot with the AF point on the target (an 18% grey card) and no EC dialed in...

Wilt wrote in post #17612344
Thanks George,

OK, here is the original Evaluative metered shot with the AF point on the target (an 18% grey card) and no EC dialed in...

Here is the Spot metered shot...

If you look at the EXIF for each, we see Evaluative suggested 1/320 f/9, while Spot suggested 1/80 f/9.
Using Evaluative I would have never been able to guess that the sky biased the metering so the shot would be underexposed by as much as -2EV, especially given the fact that the bottom 1/3 of the frame had a dark area not unlike the primary target, and given the fact that the camera was FOCUSED ON the card (the priority bias area!)

If the Spot target were NOT a mid-tone, my visual assessment would tell the trained eye twhat value of compensation to use, to tell the meter "the metered target is brighter/darker than 18% by nEV".

If you compare the Evaluative shot vs. the Center Weighted shot in post 144, there is not a tremendous difference in the result, even though the camera was focused on the card! The Evaluative bias zone contributed little to the accuracy of the exposure. Ergo, the reason why I do not ever use Evaluative...I cannot possibly guess what it will do with any precision, so my guess for compensation is similarly random!

Why not just chimp?

Archibald wrote in post #17612357
Why not just chimp?

Because if you are taking a photo of someone's priceless expression or some toddler's antics, you do NOT get a second chance to adjust exposure after chimping!

Wilt wrote in post #17612372
Because if you are taking a photo of someone's priceless expression or some toddler's antics, you do NOT get a second chance to adjust exposure after chimping!

Carry a mirrorless to get real time chimping. You can miss shots with 1dx also.

Wilt wrote in post #17612372
Because if you are taking a photo of someone's priceless expression or some toddler's antics, you do NOT get a second chance to adjust exposure after chimping!

Wilt,

Thanks for the update. I think I have to revisit SPOT metering. I never got results that dramatic, or that accurate. Being stuck to the center point kinda bugs me, but like I said, with that frame and Evaluative, I'm going to be metering, recomposing, and guessing anyway. May as well try to get an accurate meter while I'm recomposing.

And I agree with you about chimping. Nice when you can, but great way to miss shots, too.

GK.

Wilt, a follow-up, if you please. I reshot my outside/inside frame just now. Lighting is a bit different, as the other was shot yesterday. But...

I am a bit amazed. I compared my Evaluative shots (using different AF points) to metering using SPOT and recomposing. Spot wins, quite handily. As in the post I made above (and Wilts example shows), the Evaluative trick still left me 2/3 to 1 stop underexposed on the 'inside' shot, and about 1/2 over exposed on the 'outside' portion of the frame. By spot metering the inside, using *, then taking the shot, I got a much better exposure than I did with Evaluative. Ditto Spot metering and * for the outside.

I have to rethink this metering business. And now I need a camera where I can put Spot-metering on the AF point of my choice.