I saw something at B&H: UPS throwing every package

Silver-Halide wrote in post #17629159
ALL of my Adorama shipments are in nice sturdy boxes with adequate packaging. MOST of my B&H boxes are shoddy and poorly packaged.

My experience, after around 20 or so purchases from B&H. is completely different than yours. All my B&H shipments have arrived in solid boxes with more than adequate packing material and no damage to the outer boxes. Perhaps your experience is due to those who actually transported the package once it was out of B&H's hands.

This just means that the camera makers need to design their products and packaging to withstand this kind of "stress test", and apparently they do, as nothing much arrives broken. If UPS and FedEx would handle all those packages like raw eggs, it would not help: Camera makers would simply compensate for that in the other direction, with flimsier product and package designs. The result of that would be that the lenses and cameras would arrive intact but then break the first time we drop our camera bag on the floor.

A lot of wringing of hands here over a problem that just doesn't appear to be much of a problem. As others have pointed out, if stuff was getting damaged at a significant rate we'd see a change.

My experience is that Amazon, B&H and Adorama all occasionally pack much worse than the average private seller. But even so, not many issues. And if there is an issue they cover you without much trouble.

The one thing worth exploring is insurance taken on private sales. I see people saying they insure used items at full replacement value. I think that is a waste of money. From what I have been told, you may be able to recoup what you sold it for, but you'll need proof of that sale, with an address that matches the ship to address. I was told that an eBay transaction was pretty solid in terms of proof, but more private sales become questionable.

And, if it is a matter of damage, not a lost package, you are likely to get push back about packaging. Bottom line is that you should not assume that insurance is a no-brainer. I use a shipping service when I am concerned about it. They pack it and at least own that part of the responsibility.

I was wondering about that too. If I'd sell my 40D and it gets lost or damaged in transit, I doubt I'd get full price for something I can sell for maybe $150 (which is why I'm not selling it, worth way more to me). Maybe the thought is that the shipper will be more careful with a box that's insured for $3k, but since that's not printed on the outside, I doubt it makes any difference to the handlers.

Things from b&h and Adorama always arrive well packaged, Amazon is a bit more of a gamble and I've sent plenty books back that arrived with dinged corners, always got a free exchange no problem. Even if it sometimes took 3 shipments.

Since Amazon charges tax here in CA I buy more expensive things from the New York gang anyway.

mpix345 wrote in post #17629693
A lot of wringing of hands here over a problem that just doesn't appear to be much of a problem. As others have pointed out, if stuff was getting damaged at a significant rate we'd see a change.
...

That's my observation as well. I am a heavy duty online shopper as we have shifted a good portion of our shopping from B&M stores to online stores. This week alone we are expecting 4 deliveries. Of all the packages we have had, maybe 2 or 3 that have gotten damaged in transit. We have had several with missing parts but transit damage has been exceedingly rare even when the box itself looks like it came from a war zone.

phantelope wrote in post #17630055
I was wondering about that too. If I'd sell my 40D and it gets lost or damaged in transit, I doubt I'd get full price for something I can sell for maybe $150 (which is why I'm not selling it, worth way more to me). Maybe the thought is that the shipper will be more careful with a box that's insured for $3k, but since that's not printed on the outside, I doubt it makes any difference to the handlers.

What higher insurance gets is increased effort in attempting to locate a missing package. As I said earlier we had an instrument lost and after a few hours UPS called back and said file a claim. I inquired about the extent of the search because only a few hours had elapsed since I reported the lost object. They point blank told me they don't extensively search for things with $125 insurance, the default as I recall. But when I pointed out I had insured the package for $5000, they decided to look harder. Sure enough the package was found!

The fee for higher than default insurance is usually quite small.

Speaking of shipping problems, here's my latest order from Amazon.

Even if the packaging is constructed to protect the product from external damage, there's still internal components being bashed about to consider. Mirror assemblies, image stabilization assemblies, and so on.

A football helmet protects the skull; it doesn't protect the brain from getting banged around inside it.

Maybe you won't notice a problem with your lens/camera right away, but the stress resulting from being tossed or dropped may make it fail sooner than it would have.

I have no way of backing this up; just makes sense to me. I've had issues with Mr. Brown-shorts for years.

Thorsten wrote in post #17629666
If UPS and FedEx would handle all those packages like raw eggs, it would not help: Camera makers would simply compensate for that in the other direction, with flimsier product and package designs. The result of that would be that the lenses and cameras would arrive intact but then break the first time we drop our camera bag on the floor.

No, the manufacturers would have to compensate because the customers would complain. A 1D is a 1D, and it will always be expected to survive a camera bag drop. I think it's likely that most equipment failures are the result of end user treatment. The problem is that the shippers are adding some unknown amount of wear before we ever have the product in hand, which leads to early failure down the road.

It would be interesting if there was warranty claim status for items picked up at B&H or Adorama vs. items shipped to the customers from each site. That's one less cluster of ballistic packaging tests for local buyers, and I'll bet it's statistically significant.

LV Moose wrote in post #17630512
Even if the packaging is constructed to protect the product from external damage, there's still internal components being bashed about to consider. Mirror assemblies, image stabilization assemblies, and so on.

A football helmet protects the skull; it doesn't protect the brain from getting banged around inside it.

Maybe you won't notice a problem with your lens/camera right away, but the stress resulting from being tossed or dropped may make it fail sooner than it would have.

I have no way of backing this up; just makes sense to me. I've had issues with Mr. Brown-shorts for years.

Yep

I've been shipping and receiving professionally for the last 40 years. Always pack so that the contents will survive at least a 6 ft fall. As mentioned above, things can not rattle around.

John from PA wrote in post #17628047
On the note Ted brings up about insurance...it is cheap and there are reason to make the coverage high. Again, many years ago I shipped an instrument (like my comments above worth several thousand US dollars) and it became lost in transit. I contacted UPS and a few hours after my initial contact they called me back and said I should file a claim since they could not find the parcel. I inquired how could they have done a decent search in a matter of a few hours! I was point blank told that since the insurance was $125 (they default at the time as I recall) it was not worth the effort to search extensively. When I advised the individual that I had insured the device for $5000 and that value was confirmed all of a sudden the search became a "new" priority and the instrument was located the next day.

If I'm sending back a lens I always insure it for full MSRP new value; same with a camera. I don't care that the device may be 5 years old and worth 1/5 the original cost. Insuring for high values in the event of a loss gets very quick attention and costs very little additional!

You can insure the package for whatever you want. The best you could hope to recover from UPS is the depreciated value of the item, regardless of how much insurance was purchased. UPS will only pay what it considers to be the fair market value of the item. UPS is self-insured and are notoriously cheap and difficult to deal with on claims for high-value items.

I can't stand UPS. They don't even knock on my door when delivering packages. I recently went in with one other guy on some cheap 50 BMG ammo. UPS "lost" the package. Ammunition is usually marked ORM-D which makes it easy to figure out what is inside. There was 340 total rounds in that shipment.

You missed my point. High insurance doesn't get you more money back if a package is lost, it gets you visibility for the search effort. UPS or FedEx won't make much of an effort to find a package insured for $100 but they will get off their backside when you insure it for $1000.

John from PA wrote in post #17635376
You missed my point. High insurance doesn't get you more money back if a package is lost, it gets you visibility for the search effort. UPS or FedEx won't make much of an effort to find a package insured for $100 but they will get off their backside when you insure it for $1000.

So if the pkg is really lost or damaged, UPS/FexEx wont pay $1000 if you insured for that amount? I assume you had personal experience. Thanks.

bobbyz wrote in post #17629279
For some reason all folks bashing B&H are new members with less than 200-300 posts.

This. Ive been ordering from B&H since 1981. No problems at all with their packaging. People need to understand UPS is a freight package delivery service, not a courier. They cannot pay individual attention to every single package and still meet shipping timelines. Its a bulk business and sometimes things get roughed up.