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Thread started 27 Jul 2003 (Sunday) 22:49
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Resolution question??

 
charr5
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Jul 27, 2003 22:49 |  #1

Ok, hopefully I don't sound too ignorant with this question.
I've been taking shots with my 10D and I have been shooting large fine shots. Recently I wanted to get a shot enlarged and the lab said that my shot was around 180 DPI and they needed it to be around 300+ DPI to try and make a pretty large enlargement.
I am new to the digital processing world so be gentle.
Is there a way that I can make the shot 300+ DPI now?
Should I be shooting in RAW to get that resolution?
I don't have the memory right now to shoot RAW shots. What should I be doing in order to get high res pics to blow up?
Any help is appreciated.
CMH




  
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rblissett
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Jul 28, 2003 00:07 |  #2

I'm not positive but this post might help what your trying to accomplish

http://www.photography​-on-the.net …owthread.php?t=​5493#25150




  
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evilenglishman
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Jul 28, 2003 02:47 |  #3

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Jeppe
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Jul 28, 2003 03:30 |  #4

Yes, well the 10D places the image in 180 DPI, but then it is approx. 11x17 "

All images is saved in 180 DPI, but that is easy changed in Photoshop for example.

Just choose Image>Image Size

Then check "Change resolution" (or what it is called in the English version)

Now, just put 300, wher it says 180. Now you see that the size of the picture also change down to 6.8x10.2 "

A course in DPI and what it is, Is recommended for that fotolab... Hrmmpff..




  
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evilenglishman
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Jul 28, 2003 08:17 |  #5

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hmhm
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Jul 28, 2003 09:44 |  #6

The printer has some native resolution, expressed in DPI, all images must be converted to that resolution to be printed on that printer. That conversion may be done in pre-processing, it might be done in "driver software", or even in firmware in the printer, but it must be done somewhere. There are okay and "better than okay" ways to do this conversion, so preparing the file for printing using your own tools may provide the best result.
What does it means to "convert" dpi? Well, it's not about changing some field in the image, it's just about having enough pixels. If you want to make a print that is 10" wide on a 300dpi printer, then you need an image that is 3000 pixels wide. If your image is 1500 pixels wide, then you need to create a new image from the old one which has those extra pixels. You're effectively doubling the image in both directions, so the software will need to create 4 pixels where the original image had only 1. These new pixels are effectively "made up" in software; there are a variety of techniques for coming up with good values for these conjured-up pixel values, ways to interpolate between the neighboring pixels in a way that helps the image look like it has sufficient detail. You can do this within Photoshop itself, or through some dedicated tools like Genuine Fractals.
I've never understood the notion of an image being marked with a DPI when it comes out of the camera. At that point, the image just has a number of pixels, it doesn't have a DPI until somebody says what size print they want to make from it.
-harry




  
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Gibmeister
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Jul 28, 2003 17:05 |  #7

From what I have read in "The Photoshop book for digital photographers" by Scott Kelby. When you want to increase the resolution you should uncheck the resample tab under image size. Then change the resolution from 180 to 300. This changes the size from 11.378 by 17.067 to 6.827 x 10.26 but it gives you the 300 resolution you want to make a quality print. If you want to increase the size of the print you need to do it in 10% increments. Recheck the resample image box, then under document size change from inches to percent. Then increase the size of your image by no more than 10% at a time. If you do it in 10% increments, Kelby says it does not effect the quality of the photo. I have taken this 6.827 x 10.26 up to a 11x14 wth no loss in quality by using this method.

Gib




  
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ahmadof
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Jul 28, 2003 18:05 |  #8

this concept of increasing the resolution bo 'no more then 10%' is very interesting to me. am i to understand that if i wanted to upscale bt 30%, the optimal way to do this is by increasing in 10% incrememnts rather than the whole 30 at once? is this true. is seems to me that making up new pixels from old pixels that were themselves made up isn't the way to go. any thoughts?




  
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charr5
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Jul 28, 2003 20:56 |  #9

Thanks guys for all the info. I will try it out.
So is it possible to make a poster size print from the 10D and keep good quality?
I have a flower shot that I've used a mosaic mask and wanted to have it put onto canvas for a family member, but the shot would have to be pretty large.
I figured that since it was already mosaic and kind of artsy, that it wouldn't matter too much if enlarged on canvas.
What do you guys think?
Thanks
CMH




  
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Gibmeister
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Jul 29, 2003 05:11 |  #10

Scott Kelby's example was one where he took a 5x7 up to approximately 18" x 24" and he said the loss of quality is almost negligible. He had to do the 10% increase 12 times to ge it there.


Gib




  
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D60DIETER
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Jul 29, 2003 06:30 |  #11

Hi again,

I did several 20"*30" from my 10D pictures. They look really great. Here is the way I do them:

- reduce sharpness of the original picture

- set printing resolution between 150dpi 255dpi

- enlarge to 20"*30" or whatever exact you want

- use the USM to sharpen the picture again

- use the contrast kurve to enrich the contrast of the picture again

- print it on premium photo glossy paper (255g/m²)

The grade of the sharpness reduction, the printing resolution and the USM parameters are variing depending on your printer and on your picture (architecture is easier to do than landscape or portrait).

Enjoy.


Dieter




  
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evilenglishman
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Jul 29, 2003 13:18 |  #12

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mkaplan
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Jul 29, 2003 18:08 |  #13

If you want a free action to upsize, check out this site. Look at the examples. They are amazing. They are camera specific with profiles available for the D30, D60, 10D. 1D & 1Ds.
http://www.nyphotograp​hics.com/ftppage.htm (external link)




  
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Osmium
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Jul 29, 2003 21:13 |  #14

Hope you folks don't mind if I expand on this topic. If nothing else, it will help me cement my ideas. So here goes:

Image size depends upon two things: The number of pixels and the size of the pixels. Of course, this is two dimensional. We have image height and image width. If you want to we can express actual image dimensions as two equations -

Image Width = Number of pixels wide * Width of pixels
Image Height = Number of pixels high * Height of pixels

For this discussion, we can assume that pixels are square and so pixel width = pixel height.

In Photoshop, you can independently set any two of the three elements in the above equations and Photoshop will calculate the third. When intending to print an image I find it helpful to think about the right hand side of the equation first - particularly the size of the pixels.

Pixel size
-----------
You measure pixel size by seeing how many will fit in a straight line in one inch. This is the unit "pixels per inch". More commonly, the term "dots per inch" is used but this is not accurate as the two units are not necessarily equivalent - we'll see this when we talk about printers later. For now though, pretend there's no difference.

Pixel size is what most people are talking about when they discuss "Resolution". If you look at an image in photoshop and zoom the image to 400%, you'll see the image made up of little squares. These are the pixels. Mostly, when you print an image, you'd rather not see the pixels when you look at the print. Seeing the pixels depends both on their size and how far away you are from the print when you look at the image.

If you have a very large, say wall sized, print on a billboard somewhere and you stand on the other side of the road, the pixels would need to be very large indeed before you'd actually be aware of them. Cross the road and take a closer look and you'll find that they are easy to see - but now you can't see the full picture because you're too close.

When you are thinking about printing an image, the first thing to think about is how big the pixels should be - and we can figure this out by determining how far away from the print you'd like people to be when they view the image. By and large this translates into how big the print is going to be. Big prints are designed to be viewed from further away than small prints. A rule of thumb is "viewing distance = diagonal of print".

The human eye is such that at about 15 inches viewing distance it's very hard to see pixels printed at 200 ppi. If the image contains high contrast diagonals like printed text, you might just be aware of "jaggies" - the rough edge caused by trying to create a diagonal by joining tiny squares. In this case 300 ppi might be a better option. 15 inches is roughly the "normal" viewing distance for an 8 x 10 print. Personally, I think these numbers apply to people with super-vision like people from the Kalahari! Suffice to say that if you print an 8 x 10 at 300 ppi you won't see the pixels.

If you now want to print a 16 x 20 and consequently have it viewed from a further distance, you could get away with 150ppi pixel size.

So now, let's say we've chosen our required pixel size - 200 ppi. To set this for the image in Photoshop:-

Image -> Image Size

Make sure that the check box marked "Resample Image:" is NOT CHECKED. The pixel dimesions at the top of the window will now be disabled - meaning you can't change the number of pixels in the image.

Now type 200 into the "Resolution" box and set the unit to "pixels/inch".

Click OK

You have just changed the size of the pixels. The number of pixels is still the same. The size of the image will be different (refer back to the equations at the start for why).

Number of Pixels
---------------
You might have found that for the image in the above example, the image width is now 12". But you want the image to print at 16" x 20". You have 4" to go. How do you fill in that 4" of space without changing the pixel size which we just so painstakingly decided upon?

We're going to have to add more pixels! The gurus amonst us have worked out various mathematical incantations to add pixels to an image based on the pixels that are already there. They do this in such a way as to minimise any perceived degradation in image quality. People will recommend all sorts of approaches here. Using other software. Using Photoshop but adding pixels in small stages etc.. etc... You can read all about that elsewhere. For the purposes of this discussion, we'll just use Photoshop's "bicubic" algorithm and we'll do it in a single step.

Image -> Image Size

Make sure that the check box marked "Resample Image:" is CHECKED and that the drop-down box reads "bicubic". The pixel dimesions at the top of the window will now appear enabled - you could change the number of pixels by typing in here - but we won't.

Make sure that the check box marked "Constrain Proportions" is CHECKED. This keeps the width/height ratio the same if we change one of them.

Now type 16 into the "Width" box and set the unit to "inches". Note that the number of pixels just increased. Also the height of the image increased. We'll just assume for now that the image has the correct proportions for a 16 x 20 print and so the height reads 20 inches.

Click OK

Photoshop takes a little longer with this operation because it is busily calculating what new pixels it should add where. When it's finished, you have a 16" x 20" image with a pixel size of 200 ppi. You're ready to print it (on your large format printer, of course...)

Printer Resolution
---------------
Printers, that is, ink-jet printers, spray tiny dots of ink onto the paper to produce an image. Modern printers can actually vary the size of these dots. So you can have printers with "1440 dpi resolution" meaning that they can fit 1440 dots into an inch. This is very similar to the pixels per inch of the image. There is a common misconception that you have to match the image resolution to the printer resolution. In this case that would mean we'd want the image to have a pixel size of 1440 ppi!! Wrong! We just spent ages arriving at our nice 200 ppi pixel size for very good reasons. Let's not destroy that work and also end up with an enormous image file size by trying to perform this match!!

Printer resolution simply allows the printer to use more dots in painting a pixel onto the paper. While doing this, it is also performing some mathematical magic to make the colour transitions from one pixel to the next very smooth. This results in very high quality images.

When you print, your image prints at 200 ppi. The printer can be set to 720 or 1440 dpi or some other setting. And that's just fine. ;)

---------------

Wow! That was an essay and a half! Anyhow, that's what I think I've learned in my reading and using to date. If I've stuffed up, PLEASE TELL ME!

Sorry it was so long...




  
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DAMphyne
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Jul 29, 2003 22:07 |  #15

Why does this seem more confusing than it is? I think it's because we use the same term for different things.
I asked my guy at the camera store " What resolution do I need to give you for a 5x7 print?", He said, "We need a file 1000x14000 pixels"
I asked, what is the "dpi"? He said, that only pertains to printers.
Ah-Ha, I get it, Pixel dimension is the Mega-pixel number, Pixel count is the "image size", resolution is the pixel count divided by the physical dimention.
5x7@200 pixels per inch = 1000x1400 pixels
My 10D has a pixel count of 3072x2048, so I can make a print 15.36"x 10.24", with a resolution of 200ppi.
Dots per inch, dpi, is the measurement of the size of the spray dots an inkjet layers onto the print. The printer oversprays to layer the ink, hence the printer "resolutions" of 1440 or 2880 dpi.
You can only increase image size by reducing pixels per inch, or by adding pixels not originally in the image.


David
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"Welcome Seeker! Now, don't feel alone here in the New Age, because there's a seeker born every minute.";)
www.damphyne.com (external link)

  
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