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Thread started 31 Jul 2015 (Friday) 20:51
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Shooting down a drone

 
photoguy6405
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Aug 01, 2015 23:54 |  #61

I have zero problem with the guy taking out the drone, provided it was truly over his property. His method was questionable and dangerous, though.

The daughter factor is 100% irrelevant to me. I don't care if only the dog was in the yard taking a poop. If it was over his property, it was effectively ON his property, and I believe that people do have some sort of expectation of privacy in their own yards that are otherwise shielded from view by the unassisted naked eye from off the property.

You do not own the air above your property to infinity, and as such cannot restrict jet liners at 33,000 feet, for example. It has been contended that you do own something vertically, it just hasn't been decided how much. 10 feet? 50 feet? 200 feet? This is one aspect that will have to shake out and be definitively decided as drones become more common and accepted.


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Aug 02, 2015 01:56 |  #62

I hope someone is developing a device that can kill the signal of the drones. Something like a phone jammer.... flying over someone's property at a proximity where the drone can easily view others, is an invasion of privacy. There should be a way to defend against that.


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Aug 02, 2015 01:59 |  #63
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Or train birds, like crows, to take them down.


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Aug 02, 2015 02:54 |  #64

Chartered flights have to obey the minimum flight at which they can fly, I suspect that is for several reasons one of which I'm sure would include privacy.

My local Bird of Prey centre was using a drone to encourage its Falcons to fly for the crowds by dropping food for it to catch. As they are only a few miles from the nearest airport they got into trouble with the local Aviation people as they were sending it up quite high. ( the owner was quit bullish about his 'right' to fly it )

As has been already said in this thread, rogue drone operators will ruin this for the sensible ones. Today in the world, anyone with a long lens in the wrong area, is immediately suspected of being a pervert, and drone operators will surely follow if this carries on.

To play Devils advocate, my OH works in Child Protection for our local council. She assures me there's a staggering amount of people on the "sex offenders register" and we live in a relatively rural area.


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whiteflyer
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Aug 02, 2015 03:32 |  #65

h14nha wrote in post #17653275 (external link)
To play Devils advocate, my OH works in Child Protection for our local council. She assures me there's a staggering amount of people on the "sex offenders register" and we live in a relatively rural area.

Problem with the UK sex offender list is that if a boy of 15years 11 months has sexual contact with his girlfriend of the same age ( age of consent 16 in UK) then technically they have both broken the law and should be put on the sex offenders list.

I suspect that a HUGE number on the sex offenders list are not the child molesting perverts the papers like to think are stalking every street conner.


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h14nha
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Aug 02, 2015 03:48 |  #66

whiteflyer wrote in post #17653287 (external link)
Problem with the UK sex offender list is that if a boy of 15years 11 months has sexual contact with his girlfriend of the same age ( age of consent 16 in UK) then technically they have both broken the law and should be put on the sex offenders list.

I suspect that a HUGE number on the sex offenders list are not the child molesting perverts the papers like to think are stalking every street conner.

To your first point, no courts are prosecuting 15 year old boys sleeping with their girlfriends, that's a law which is a joke. Those boys aren't on the register.

Secondly, the huge numbers are usually family/neighbours/fami​ly friends. Not very palatable but a fact.

The drone user in this case was almost certainly a 'victim' of the hysteria from the gutter press. At a height of a few hundred feet, the camera could potentially see into dozens of bedroom windows etc. Was he doing so, probably not. The dad over reacted when he saw it, I wonder how he reacts when the same 16 year old comes downstairs wearing virtually nothing to go to a party with her friends.Tough for dads to deal with but I bet the 16 year old gets her way in the end.


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Aug 02, 2015 04:21 as a reply to  @ post 17652046 |  #67

^ What he said. If I had time, I'd go inside and come out with my compound bow. Its not illegal to fire off an arrow in the city :-D




  
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Aug 02, 2015 05:33 |  #68
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Silver-Halide wrote in post #17653302 (external link)
^ What he said. If I had time, I'd go inside and come out with my compound bow. Its not illegal to fire off an arrow in the city :-D

Which means you either don't understand the argument in this thread, or you actually believe you have the right to kill your neighbor just for looking into (or over, across, through) your back yard. For the most part, if you neighbor can see into your back yard from his, he is committing no crime, not even a civil offense, to be looking at you in your yard. The drone is doing the same thing. You have no expectation of privacy while voluntarily exposing yourself to public view.

Which is not to say that I totally agree with the all of that. Our legal system needs to revisit privacy and property rights.


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Reservoir ­ Dog
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Aug 02, 2015 06:00 |  #69

So nobody found strange that owners of the drone founded back their drone > WITH the camera inside BUT the SD card has mysteriously disappeared ?

i mean ... seriously ? am i the only one which saw the video until the end here (external link) ?
Video >> http://www.wdrb.com …laims-of-privacy-invasion (external link)


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Aug 02, 2015 08:40 |  #70

This topic is the sort where there are no absolutes, and we end up arguing over where to draw the line. Such arguments are endless, with impassioned participants finding obscure what-ifs to challenge any sort of consensus. So that's a great way to explore a topic, but let's keep friendly through the process.

Legally, people can be observed when on their own property, but not through their windows. This detail is obtained from the point of view of insurance companies trying to identify work comp fraud, but I understand the restrictions/ permissions to be non-specific.

I recall a case in the news where a homeowner went around nude in his home, and was able to be seen from the street through a front picture window. Law enforcement had no recourse, as the homeowner had broken no laws, and if anything, those who watched the man were peeping toms. There's always more to the story than we ever get from our corporatized, sanitized press. Was the person parading around at opportune moments to elicit attention, or was he a hard core nudist genuinely moving about his home? Legally, I suppose it doesn't matter, but it does indicate what he person was trying to accomplish.

So most people might say that a person crosses the line when they sneak up to a window to look through, but legally, just looking through a window is an invasion of privacy regardless of where the viewer stands. So it goes in the USA, but I also recall a story about a judge that allowed artwork based on photography of street scenes that included views of apartment dwellers within their apartments. So maybe the whole 'in public view' thing is a line that is drawn differently in different nations, but since it caused worldwide reporting, I suspect that there is an expectation universally that we should be left alone when in our domicile.

So can a person use a drone, or any camera, to take pictures of you in your backyard? For non-commercial purposes, I think the legal answer is yes. For commercial purposes, drone use would require an FAA license, and use of the images would require some sort of model release. I'm not sure about how model releases work, but I know all about the FAA requirements - I'm not allowed to use a drone at work for imaging because it would be a commercial activity requiring FAA Licensing. We ended up hiring a company that used the octocopter to suspend a 5d3 - very cool stuff BTW.

So let's set aside the photography aspect briefly. Can a person look at you when you're in your yard? If they were waving hello, I doubt we'd protest. If they were taking photos with a 400mm lens, most would feel uncomfortable. Legally? I don't know that the law sees a difference.

Making common expectations into law is difficult because the expectations are so often contextual, as in the above paragraph. A common expectation would be to greet the neighbor, examine their artful landscaping but not their proverbial sunbathing daughter (returning to the topic's original premise). I'm in agreement about the expectation, but how do we legislate this to everyone's satisfaction?

Let's start a new nation up (thanks to Mike Stipe) and explore ideas for the perfect privacy laws. I'll start:

People covered head to toe at all times in public with a non-form fitting outer garment to eliminate them from at least detailed view.
8' privacy fences now required
No windows in our domicile for people to look though, so those within cannot violate the privacy of those walking by, and vice versa.

Violations of privacy laws are enforceable with lethal means by the person whose privacy was violated.

Hopefully most see that draft set of rules as tongue in cheek, but also hopefully thought provoking...


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Aug 02, 2015 09:08 |  #71

iowajim wrote in post #17653403 (external link)
So most people might say that a person crosses the line when they sneak up to a window to look through, but legally, just looking through a window is an invasion of privacy regardless of where the viewer stands. So it goes in the USA, but I also recall a story about a judge that allowed artwork based on photography of street scenes that included views of apartment dwellers within their apartments. So maybe the whole 'in public view' thing is a line that is drawn differently in different nations, but since it caused worldwide reporting, I suspect that there is an expectation universally that we should be left alone when in our domicile.

Actually in that case, which was in NYC, the people lived on the higher floors of a highrise building, and the images were taken using a telephoto lens from another highrise building across the street. From viewing some of the images, it would only have been possible to observe anything within the building by use of optical aids, usually the amount of light falling on the outside of the building would cause such a high contrast ratio that you would not be able to make out the details of what was happening inside. So in the US, or at least NYC it would seem that as long as someone is in a location where they have a legal right to be they can use a 400m telephoto lens to photograph you indoors, and then sell that image as a work of art. Be interesting to see someone do that to a "famous" person. So I guess as long as the drone is being flown legally you can pretty much photograph what you want, with any sort of lens you want. at least in NYC, not sure how that case law works in other states of the USA. The NYC judgement was interesting as it seems to go against the previous general assumption that looking through windows with a telephoto lens was an invasion of privacy.

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LV ­ Moose
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Aug 02, 2015 09:09 |  #72

Back in the days before cable, a friend of mine built a couple frequency jammers and gave me one. I'd walk around the neighborhood and screw with people as they were watching TV. I'd jam the channel they were watching, and when they'd switch to a differently one, I'd dial that one in. Good times.

Anyway, I wonder if similar jammers would be a good alternative to firearms when it comes to disabling drones over your property. Not sure if they would be legal or not. And there's the problem of trying to find the correct frequency; I guess you'd need some type of scanner as well.

I see a market opening up. Anyone care to invest?


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Aug 02, 2015 09:17 |  #73

Only a broad spectrum jammer would be effective. If jamming became an issue, the transceivers can simply use frequency hopping to get around the jamming. But seriously, I believe that most quad copters use the 2.4gHz band as do many home wireless networks. Do we really want jammers all over the place knocking out your connectivity?


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Aug 02, 2015 09:18 |  #74

LV Moose wrote in post #17653427 (external link)
Back in the days before cable, a friend of mine built a couple frequency jammers and gave me one. I'd walk around the neighborhood and screw with people as they were watching TV. I'd jam the channel they were watching, and when they'd switch to a differently one, I'd dial that one in. Good times.

Anyway, I wonder if similar jammers would be a good alternative to firearms when it comes to disabling drones over your property. Not sure if they would be legal or not. And there's the problem of trying to find the correct frequency; I guess you'd need some type of scanner as well.

I see a market opening up. Anyone care to invest?

Great idea... If you ignore all the laws you're breaking with such a scheme. The FAA will have some nice words to say to you for interfering with control of an aircraft, and and the FCC is going to have some interesting talks to you about unlawful interference with wireless communications. Then there is still the whole willful destruction of private property that comes into play if you deliberately use such a device to try and make something crash, along with potential for things like negligence causing bodily harm or even death.

So, good luck with those ideas. More and more people are including signal analysis systems as part of their flight control setups for debugging and safety reasons, so it might be a little less obvious than a shot gun but it is still very detectible.


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Post edited over 8 years ago by Lester Wareham with reason '"piss" keep it as family freindly as possible; some people are more senitive than others.'. (3 edits in all)
     
Aug 02, 2015 09:31 |  #75

Hey, I didn't say the plan was perfect ;-)a

Lighten up, Alex.


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