Sharpening for Landscapes Question....

Yep, the crap part about digital photography, is your files really are slaves to the program you're using. LR/ACR is very nice once you get used to it, but I've found the Color profiles are not accurate which is a huge problem to me. I'd say the most accurate is Adobe Standard but I make my own Dual Illuminant profiles now and the colors sure seem a lot better to me. I don't ever have to touch the vibrance or saturation sliders now. I'm sure the colors in DPP are far more accurate than LR since it's all Canon. I do also like Capture One Pro, but it is so slow if you use it like LR and they have a TIF file problem at the moment while exporting to PS. I've edited some 5DSR files in LR and Capture One Pro, and color accuracy of both programs looks better. Canon has a new color rendering system with that body too I guess that is supposed to be better. Color Depth at 50mp too is far superior

I do recommend that people keep DPP "on hand" so that at least they have a reference when working with another Raw processor. However, that doesn't mean that I prefer it above something like Lightroom...LR has a better way of handling dynamic range, for example, and I suggest "experimenting" with DPP, but then trying to match and improve with your "main" Raw processor.

However, I haven't played with the B&W, and especially, DPP has some IR processing that you may not find in other apps!

.just to see what Lightroom was doing to a stc Canon RAW vs DPP I imported my 5DSR RAW into both useing std settings with no Sharpening or Noise reduction on both (also no auto correction etc ) ...Once I had done that instead of exporting the 100% crop from each app risking different export setting changes I just put both apps 100% previews side by side on my laptop and did a screen dump of both. Then took into PS and combined both on one canvas like you see below. That way both were treated exactly the same on export and import to PS.... .I know its not a perfect comparison by any means however it shows there is infact a difference how lightroom and DPP treat/render the RAW 50meg Cs2

I know there is different contrast and color rendering between the two default settings( both zero'd for sharpness and noise) but to my eye its close with Lightroom having what appears to me as a slight sharpness /detail edge.... . But then....when you take into consideration the extra noise in Lightroom ( which suggests some extra RAW sharpening when rendering compared to DPP ) then the DPP to my eye may have the edge because it could cope with more sharpening to get it to a similar noise level....ANd that would change the perception of detail on the DPP considerably. As it stands the DPP RAW render looks decidedly soft agains lightroom( compare green leaf under beak in Back ground) but thats not a bad thing either ....as it allows you to add later in further PP if needed.

Probably not enough to lose sleep over this difference because this is only noticeable at 100%.....And the print of this thing would be over a meter so wouldnt be viewing this closer than a meter or so anyway....ANd same will probably apply for using DPP to print sharpen vs Lightroom or PS..they will most likely all be different even at similar settings.

For me Im happy to stick with Lightroom for moment due to all the extra features it offers over DPP

Clipper

clipper_from_oz wrote in post #17684611
.just to see what Lightroom was doing to a stc Canon RAW vs DPP I imported my 5DSR RAW into both useing std settings with no Sharpening or Noise reduction on both (also no auto correction etc ) ...Once I had done that instead of exporting the 100% crop from each app risking different export setting changes I just put both apps 100% previews side by side on my laptop and did a screen dump of both. Then took into PS and combined both on one canvas like you see below. That way both were treated exactly the same on export and import to PS.... .I know its not a perfect comparison by any means however it shows there is infact a difference how lightroom and DPP treat/render the RAW 50meg Cs2

I know there is different contrast and color rendering between the two default settings( both zero'd for sharpness and noise) but to my eye its close with Lightroom having what appears to me as a slight sharpness /detail edge.... . But then....when you take into consideration the extra noise in Lightroom ( which suggests some extra RAW sharpening when rendering compared to DPP ) then the DPP to my eye may have the edge because it could cope with more sharpening to get it to a similar noise level....ANd that would change the perception of detail on the DPP considerably. As it stands the DPP RAW render looks decidedly soft agains lightroom( compare green leaf under beak in Back ground) but thats not a bad thing either ....as it allows you to add later in further PP if needed.

Probably not enough to lose sleep over this difference because this is only noticeable at 100%.....And the print of this thing would be over a meter so wouldnt be viewing this closer than a meter or so anyway....ANd same will probably apply for using DPP to print sharpen vs Lightroom or PS..they will most likely all be different even at similar settings.

For me Im happy to stick with Lightroom for moment due to all the extra features it offers over DPP

Clipper

interesting idea but I think like you say LR is probably sharpening more...

why did ou bring into Ps rathe than just posting the screenshot?


what I notice is that the beak has better highlight protection in DPP and it looks like the shadows and colour have had a lift from LR

From my earlier experiments I suspect that DPP has better (more accurate) colour reproduction, but the interface is so awful it is hard for me to use.

I do wonder whether the files would contain more info though so maybe if we just did the very least adjustments for highlight and shadow in DPP we might have a better starting point if Ps was our r next destination?

I Simonius wrote in post #18304121
interesting idea but I think like you say LR is probably sharpening more...

why did ou bring into Ps rathe than just posting the screenshot?

what I notice is that the beak has better highlight protection in DPP and it looks like the shadows and colour have had a lift from LR

From my earlier experiments I suspect that DPP has better (more accurate) colour reproduction, but the interface is so awful it is hard for me to use.

I do wonder whether the files would contain more info though so maybe if we just did the very least adjustments for highlight and shadow in DPP we might have a better starting point if Ps was our r next destination?

Bit of an older thread. Try my formula. Set LR colour profile to Canon Standard. Clarity is optional but for bird details I like it.

BASIC

Clarity +15
Vibrance -9
Saturation +4

HSL/Color/B+W

Saturation

Yellow +15
Green -6
Blue +10

LR is on the left

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #17680697
If you process a RAW file and then open it in Photoshop, are you still working with the actual RAW file itself or a copy of it? The reason I ask is I took a class on printing for fine art landscapes from a pretty big name photographer whom I won't mention, but in the lesson, I was told to sharpen to a certain extent in the RAW conversion program (LR or ACR), then bring it into PS, Resize the image, apply high pass sharpening and then apply very fine Sharpening with the Unsharp Mask with settings like (500%, Radius 0.2-0.5 depending on the image, Threshold 0). The main reason for sharpening in LR or ACR was to apply "deconvolution sharpening". By applying sharpening at this stage it's supposed to unlock some details that you just can't with the file in PS. If you're still working with the RAW file in PS could you just sharpen there and use no sharpening in LR or ACR to achieve the same effect? I find the sharpening in LR or ACR produces artifacts for me that are just frustrating. The settings you're supposed to use with this method in LR or ACR for sharpening are also very fine (Amount 35-55% Radius 0.5, Detail 100 Masking 0). I've also been playing with Capture One Pro lately and whatever algorythim they're using for sharpening is just fantastic! My files from start to finish just have a much cleaner look with that program for whatever reason, but the catalog sucks and they currently have an issue with the output TIF files I won't get into, so I'm sticking with LR.

Just in case someone is still following. Deconvolution is obviously done at the capture phase of sharpening. DPP offers true deconvolution with DLO. No matter how much you apply you never see artifacts so it does not use sharpening.

LR/ACR are a bit of mixed bag. In the detail tab it does apply sharpening which will produce artifacts if over cooked. I leave it at the default of 25 to prevent that.

The detail slider is interesting. Between 0 to 50 it does halo suppression. Between 50 to 100 it does deconvolution but no halo suppression. For lower ISO's my preset is 75. For higher 25.

There is the key. Balancing the sharpening and detail sliders for conditions. If the detail slider is at 100 and you are pushing the sharpening you will get artifacts. This is why I leave sharpening at 25. I can make up for it during output sharpening. Editing multiple images I use LR for export. For my hobby shots I use PS because I have better control of the output sharpening.

Also I always use the masking slider. I think it makes a huge difference.

digital paradise wrote in post #18304137
Bit of an older thread. Try my formula. Set LR colour profile to Canon Standard. Clarity is optional but for bird details I like it.

BASIC

Clarity +15
Vibrance -9
Saturation +4

HSL/Color/B+W

Saturation

Yellow +15
Green -6
Blue +10

LR is on the left

thanks I'll try that

thread came up when I searched for 5DsR sharpening. Maybe time to start a new one?

Thanks for the explanations of what the detail, slider does at different settings -I used to use Alex nails Ps action for web sharpening but now I export for web more often from LR, I can't find an equivalent way of sharpening easily and automatically that I really like

Now that I use the 5DsR I find If I try to use LR to get really sharp looking web pics it goes a bit odd, I don't like the effect


For printing I always go through Photoshop at some stage then to Imageprint RIP usually sharpening with Nik but Im open to suggestions for a better sharpening workflow for print. (Imageprints sharpening is global only so thats too restrictive)

I Simonius wrote in post #18304173
thanks I'll try that

thread came up when I searched for 5DsR sharpening. Maybe time to start a new one?

Might be a good idea. Things change. Go for it.

I Simonius wrote in post #18304178
Thanks for the explanations of what the detail, slider does at different settings -I used to use Alex nails Ps action for web sharpening but now I export for web more often from LR, I can't find an equivalent way of sharpening easily and automatically that I really like

Now that I use the 5DsR I find If I try to use LR to get really sharp looking web pics it goes a bit odd, I don't like the effect


For printing I always go through Photoshop at some stage then to Imageprint RIP usually sharpening with Nik but Im open to suggestions for a better sharpening workflow for print. (Imageprints sharpening is global only so thats too restrictive)

With no AA filter that will change everything. I don't have that body but I would probably go pretty light on sharpening in the detail tab and stay in the halo suppression zone just to experiment.