Upgrade from 7D to Full Frame or....

Hey folks, I'm here to lay some thoughts down on paper, so to speak, as it helps me make decisions. I'm planning a camera upgrade in the near future and here's where I'm at. If you have any thoughts please contribute as I like to bounce things around. Here's my current situation and setup:

I shoot a good mix of things including, but not limited to: landscape, cityscape, celestial, wildlife (including birds), flora, candid street portraits, live music (most often indoors), extreme sports (white water kayaking, snowboarding, motocross, etc), and the occasional portraits or weddings for friends right now. I’ve also been shooting video for the last year or so and really enjoy the medium.

Up until now I've been shooting for my own enjoyment and will continue this, but I am pursuing photography for the next year or two to see if I can make a run of it. I'm very happy with where I'm at skill-wise and am improving more every time I pull out my camera and shoot.

Now a bit about how I shoot. I'm rough on my gear. I take my camera places most people wouldn't - hiking, backpacking, canoeing, kayaking, storm-shooting, sandboarding, snowboarding, and most recently my camera spent the previous 8 months traveling on a dual sport motorbike with me across Canada, the States, and mostly around Mexico. That trip really pushed my gear in terms of ruggedness as I do lots of off-road riding while traveling, crash occasionally, and am exposed to all the elements all the time. By the end of 8 months I ruined my 15-85 (well, need to send it in anyway, the lens is jammed stuck at 15mm after an adventure with 60mph winds and sand dunes), as well as some functions of my camera not working properly now.

I currently shoot a 7D, by the way. I bought it used 3 years ago and have absolutely loved it. I love the ergonomics of it over my previous T1i, the solid magnesium alloy construction, the layout of all the controls, etc. A lot of people recommended smaller, lighter options considering that I go on week long hiking trips and multi-month backpacking trips with it, but I love and need the solid construction, durability, and weather resistance of it.

So what do I feel like I need to upgrade? Well, the big thing would be low-light performance for me, mostly when shooting live music in poor-lit clubs, or outdoor festivals at night. I’m sure my celestial photos would appreciate that as well, but I’ve mostly felt limited shooting people and bands in clubs. I’ll also point out that I’m not one of those people that think the 7D is useless in low-light; I’ve shot it plenty at ISO 6400 to keep my shutter speed up to prevent subject movement, and am well-versed in TeamSpeed’s thread and shooting/post-processing methods. I’m looking for better performance at ISO6400 and above, though, and to me that means going full-frame.

Looking at what my options are, it might seem sensible to keep my 7D and pick up a 6D for my low-light use, but this option doesn’t work for me for a couple reasons. Firstly, I really am not a fan of the feel/layout of the 6D and secondly, and more importantly, I want one body to shoot everything I do as when I’m traveling for extended periods of time, I will only bring one with me; I don’t feel the 6D would last me long with how I use/abuse my gear. The 1DX would check all my boxes, but that is way out of my budget and not at all feasible.

The camera that I’ve drooled over since it came out is the 5D3. The more and more I think about it, I think it’s a fantastic all-round body for my uses. I would lose 2 fps from my current 7D (and I do make use of the 8fps plenty when shooting sports), I lose the crop factor, which I enjoy when shooting wildlife and some sports as well, I lose the ability to use EF-S lenses, but that’s not too much concern as I could really use better weather sealed lenses anyway. AF system is similar between the 5D3 and 7D, yeah? I’ve really enjoyed shooting with the 7D because of its AF. Video features should be as good or better than the 7D, yes? And the big thing, low-light performance! Full frame seems to be what I need for my indoor shooting of live music, and this is what I really plan to pursue in terms of work.

The other option I’ve been tossing around recently is a 1D4 as I found one for sale locally for what I consider a good price. I picked it up and really like the feel in hand. It has the durability I need, the drive speed and AF performance I love, and has the larger APS-H sensor. From what I understand it’s similar age to the 7D and has similar video features. I’m wondering what kind of jump in low-light performance I could realistically expect. My heart is pretty set on full frame, but the 1D4 seems to check most boxes as well.

Anyway, these are the thoughts going through my mind right now and like I said it seems to help me thing about my priorities and options. Since I already typed this up I’ll post it and would love any thoughts from the crowd!

Best regards,

Jason

what lenses are you typically using to shoot the bands?

I've been using both my 50/1.8 and 11-16/2.8 shooting indoors. The AF of the nifty fifty certainly doesn't do well, but the 1.8 is nice. In the near future I would like to pick up a couple more primes - likely a 35/2IS, or a Sigma 35 or 50/1.4A.

From an investment standpoint the best choice you could make would be faster lenses. A couple of good primes would help just as much as a new body and the good thing about buying lens, they retain their value for much longer. The lure of a new body is hard to resist, but your current 7D has done a good job for you. Let it work well for another year or two and spend your money on some great glass. In the long run that would be the best investment.

No comments on the glass/body debate. I do find it curious that you haven't included the 7D2 in your list. I've never touched either, but from what I've read, ISO performance of the 7D2 will be superior to the 1D4.

And the price of the 7D2 is falling every day; you should be able to find a NA-warranty body for under $1400 almost anywhere. I agree that the 7D2 ought to be comparable to the 1D4 in ISO performance (lower noise and cleaner in very low light) and has a more modern AF system.

I have a 7D2 and a 5D3 and would be hard pressed to choose between them because I use the strengths of each camera in different places. There's about 1 stop difference in usable ISO performance and AF is great on both. The noise is a little easier to deal with in PP on the 5D3 and it does have the DoF control that a FF sensor gives you. But I need that extra "reach" from the APS-C sensor quite often. Horses for courses.

Nogo wrote in post #17681975
From an investment standpoint the best choice you could make would be faster lenses. A couple of good primes would help just as much as a new body and the good thing about buying lens, they retain their value for much longer. The lure of a new body is hard to resist, but your current 7D has done a good job for you. Let it work well for another year or two and spend your money on some great glass. In the long run that would be the best investment.

I understand that glass is usually the better purchase, however I think I would gain more from a body in this instance. Remember, the main thing I'm looking to improve is my low-light capabilities. Bumping from my 50/1.8 up to something with f/1.4 only gives me 2/3 of a stop of light. Going to a 5D3 would give me a good bit more usable than that, wouldn't it?

Regarding the 7D2, yes it was certainly on the list as well as I have been reading all kinds of 1D4 vs 7D2 threads lately. I guess if the 1D4 is in the running then so is the 7D2 and realistically I would go for a 7D2 if it compares or exceeds at high ISO. 1D4 just happens to have been available locally which I can't say about the other two. How would you guys rate the 7D, 1D4, 7D2, and 5D3 in terms of usable high ISO? I would consider my 7D to top out at 6400 usable (and those are pretty noisy shots, I much prefer to not go higher than 3200). Would the 1D4/7D2 give me an extra stop there? And then the 5D3 another stop still? The idea of the 5D3 being able to give me that much more is what draws me to it, while still having most of the features of my 7D.

Thanks for the replies thus far!

PS - I'm in Canada and with our weak dollar right now at ~.76 USD, prices are a good bit higher for me. I'll be waiting for a good used price regardless of what I go with.

Yes, get the 5D3.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17682599
Yes, get the 5D3.

And the price could not be better right now. I got mine for just a little over 2K (shipped) via Greentoe.

The 7D2 is not superior to the 1D4 at high ISO. They are at best nearly identical, but I still think the 1D4 has a very slight edge, raw to raw. I think the progression goes 7D-5D2-7D2-1D4-5D3-6D-1DX with about a 2 to 2 1/3 stop expanse covering these bodies. The bodies in bold only have perhaps a 3/4 stop difference.

The 5D3 is a great camera, with great AF for sports, etc. You cannot go wrong with that as long as you have the reach. If you get that body, don't get rid of your 11-16, add a 1.4x to that, and shoot away, it adds new life to that lens for FF owners.

The 1D4 is a great camera too, you cannot go wrong with that, as you get a bit more reach over FF, but not as much as APS-C.

These are all within the $1K to $2K range, so you have 3 good choices to consider. I do indeed love the fully working auto-ISO in manual mode on the 7D2 though, something not found on the other 2 bodies. It adds new life to shooting manual where you want to control shutter and DOF, but want the ISO to float, while exposing to the right. The 1D4 has a way to do this a bit if you use AE microadjust, but it is limited to 1 stop.

I'm upgrading from 7D to 5D as well.

Thanks for the replies everyone, and especially to TeamSpeed for the detailed post. I went and checked out a couple of these bodies at the local shop and it's definitely between the 7D2 and the 5D3, although my heart is still pretty set on the 5D3. Just need to find one now at price I can afford. The Canadian dollar is really hurting right now at .75 USD. If you know of anyone selling a well used 5D3 send a PM my way!