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Thread started 01 Sep 2015 (Tuesday) 06:15
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Which Zeiss....

 
farmer1957
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Sep 06, 2015 11:58 |  #16

Turn the AF off on your lenses and go try MF out .

Try shouting MF tethered that will help teach you manual focus.

I use a TSE 17mm and TSE 24 mm both being only manual focus lenses.

Honestly if I can get a sharp image fast enough I rather not use AF, ( ever ).
Most of my photography is ( still photography ) and done with a TSE lens ( manual focus only )
( Moving subjects MF )
I do allot of focusing in on a something in the path of the subject or something at the same focal length then shoot the subject when it comes into that focal length.

Some lenses really are tough to do a MF on, they are touchy , like the canon EFS 10-22 mm.

Just a Idea's to help see if you will like manual focusing lenses.




  
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ed ­ rader
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Sep 06, 2015 16:12 |  #17

why do you want to spend that much money on a lens that does not AF when canon makes so many fine lenses that will laser focus on the bodies you own. if you just want to spend money and try something new i'd get the Samyang 14. AF accuracy is not as critical on UW lenses and you'll be adding a FL you don't already have.


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ceriltheblade
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Sep 07, 2015 04:46 |  #18

Thank you both for posting and challenging me on my thought process:

farmer1957 wrote in post #17696994 (external link)
Turn the AF off on your lenses and go try MF out .

Try shouting MF tethered that will help teach you manual focus.

I use a TSE 17mm and TSE 24 mm both being only manual focus lenses.

Honestly if I can get a sharp image fast enough I rather not use AF, ( ever ).
Most of my photography is ( still photography ) and done with a TSE lens ( manual focus only )
( Moving subjects MF )
I do allot of focusing in on a something in the path of the subject or something at the same focal length then shoot the subject when it comes into that focal length.

Some lenses really are tough to do a MF on, they are touchy , like the canon EFS 10-22 mm.

Just a Idea's to help see if you will like manual focusing lenses.

I have tried changing the AF to MF and asked above if the feel would be the same. Some posters answered that it isn't close to the same and therefore I shouldn't judge the experience according to the above. Is your experience different? I personally started this hobby only a couple years ago and never owned a camera without AF, so I ask. I also don't have available to me a lens that i can borrow or test out for the above. The lenses above you mentioned are specifically MF lenses and made for such usage. I own the mpe-65 and it is MF but I am not sure that ultra macro MF (critical DOF) is a similar experience. What do you think?

ed rader wrote in post #17697243 (external link)
why do you want to spend that much money on a lens that does not AF when canon makes so many fine lenses that will laser focus on the bodies you own. if you just want to spend money and try something new i'd get the Samyang 14. AF accuracy is not as critical on UW lenses and you'll be adding a FL you don't already have.

I agree that Canon and other companies make wonderful lenses which can autofocus, but there are times that I thought to experiment. I am not selling a kidney or denying any specific need to me or my family by purchasing the lens, so I wanted to try something new. I was looking at different available lenses - both vintage as well as brand new. I can say that I am very tempted to try the zeiss, but the meyer optick trioplan 100 (new iteration or vintage one) or something else indeed is in the running. One large benefit for the newer lenses is that they come already in a Canon mount - though I suppose that it is more a "me" problem since there are indeed reasonable alternatives for adaptation.


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farmer1957
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Sep 07, 2015 05:27 as a reply to  @ ceriltheblade's post |  #19

I learned the most about manual focus when my camera is on a tripod and I am shooting tethered ( product photography shoot )

Shooting tethered will make it easy to see your depth of field.

99 percent of my photography is done in MF which seems natural to me.

Shooting still photography in MF is pretty easy, its the stuff that moves that is tough to focus on in MF.




  
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BigAl007
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Sep 07, 2015 07:59 |  #20

I started out with MF, as that was all we had back in the 70's. There is a significant difference between using a good MF lens, and using an AF lens in MF mode. This is simply because the demands placed on the focusing systems vary considerably between AF and MF. To make a fast focusing AF lens you need a relatively short throw on the focus movement, this makes it quick for the motor to move from MFD to Infinity and back. Also the motor drive can be very accurate while moving over very short distances. In comparison an MF lens needs a long throw, so that there is significant movement available, as use humans are not nearly as accurate in moving and seeing the difference in the focus position required. Thats not to say that one cannot successfully MF with an AF lens, or that a long throw AF system wouldn't work, but both will be somewhat sub-optimal.

There is one other thing to consider when looking at MF lenses in an EF mount. That is aperture operation. In adapted lenses that is always also going to be completely manual, so you will have to do the final composition etc at the taking aperture. Most of the (not so) cheap EF mount MF lenses also only have a manually operated aperture, so again you are restricted to composing at the taking aperture, although they do seem to feature a stop down lever on the side, like most non auto M42 lenses have. At least the high end Zeiss lenses do actually have an electronic aperture, and so you are able to do your metering and final composition while still at maximum aperture, with the lens stopping down automatically as you shoot. It also gives you in body control of the aperture value, and of course the correct value reported to the EXIF data.

When it comes to using the viewfinder it is useful to have a focus screen that is optimised for the maximum aperture that you will be using. Back when everything was MF most SLRs used a high precision matte, usually with split image and fresnel sections. these work fine with maximum apertures below f/2.8, and were very good with the common 50mm f/1.7/8 kit lenses. Add a telephoto or even worse a telephoto zoom at f/4 - f/5.6 or smaller and the image gets very dark and the aids blackout becoming useless. That is where the screens optimised for smaller than f/2.8 apertures become useful, as they stay bright at even quite small apertures, although you really cannot see the precise point of focus using one. That of course is not an issue when using those apertures, as the DoF will cover the inaccuracy. If I were to regularly use MF lenses, and I would be more inclined to do so if they had auto aperture available, I would want to be able to change the focus screen type to keep it optimised for the maximum aperture of the lens I would be using. As others have said I find MF very useful for Product photography where everything is set up and fixed, although then using Liveview also becomes an option, although the fact that you cannot seem to trigger studio flash in LV is a PITA (at least on my 50D).

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mikewinburn
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Sep 07, 2015 08:36 |  #21

Well, here's an idea... For a $500 investment (or less with careful shopping), why not pick up an old film camera and a couple manual focus lenses first. Shoot 10 rolls, and then determine if manual focus lenses should have your money? It's a lot more fun, a lot less expensive, and, you might even find yourself preferring film to digital for casual shooting :)

Just a thought!


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ErgoSpacePig
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Sep 07, 2015 11:23 |  #22

why not just rent one or both lens and test them out for your self. I rented the Zeiss 100 for a weekend and fell in love with it, i don't use it to shoot moving subjects so i don't really miss AF. by the way the 135 APO is considered by many to have Otus IQ without the price. another suggestion is to buy a used copy, you can sell always sell it and get you money back if you don't like it.

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sdipirro
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Sep 08, 2015 14:18 |  #23

I read all the responses and then went back to your original post. I own 2 Zeiss lenses, the 15mm and the 21mm. You're trying to decide between the 21 or 135, two vastly different lenses for different purposes. You mentioned doing portrait work and using the 135 for that. Since the Canon 135 f2 is such a great lens, when comparing it to the Zeiss 135 for portrait work, the Canon is probably going to be the better choice. As for the Zeiss 21, you're not going to be using this for portraits and more likely for landscapes. And for that purpose, it's an excellent lens and no Canon lens can touch it at that focal length. The rugged feel of the lens and the focus ring allows for precision manual focusing. And focusing at infinity is actually focusing at infinity on the Zeiss lens! Since my eyesight isn't perfect, I rely on the focus confirmation light for most shots, and it's damn close. If you're shooting at f2.8 with it and want something in the foreground to be in perfect focus, then use liveview at 10x to make sure. But when shooting landscapes at f8 or whatever, I find the focus confirmation to be close enough. I don't use it for moving subjects or for portraits, but for landscapes and architecture, it's a great lens (but since getting the 15mm, I don't use the 21mm nearly as much! Just to give you something else to chew on!)


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ceriltheblade
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Sep 09, 2015 03:25 |  #24

thanks guys.

the film camera is a no go. I understand the thought process behind why you made your suggestion and I understand that there many people who still like the look and character of film over digital...but i really dont have the time to get into film and it just (at this point) doesn't get my juices running. Sorry. thanks for the idea however.

renting is definitely a possibility. I dont have the budget I thought I had yet - so I will consider it closer to the time I will have the budget.

sdipirro: you are right - I had a mish-mash of ideas. The common theme is the MF and not the purpose of the lens. I am a hobbiest - so I like shooting all sorts of subjects, and yes - the portrait and the landscape are my two favorite ones. The issue between the 135 of zeiss vs canon has been a subject of annoyance. See - the canon 135 is a cheap excellent lens with AF and no IS. I have always been saying to myself that I will wait until it gets the IS to buy it ... but then it is hypocritical considering I am considering the 135 zeiss without AF or IS! I admit it - I am a goof.

The 21 has always been attractive to me...and I suspect, easier for me to get used to seing that the subjects are generally static... but I did love the focal length.

and though I also have now become interested in the 100.... i think i will put that one on the side burner just since the 100L is a really nice lens and that would be way too much overlap for my first MF lens. Maybe in the future.

thanks all for the ideas!!


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mikewinburn
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Sep 09, 2015 23:31 as a reply to  @ ceriltheblade's post |  #25

Good luck on it partner


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little ­ canon
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Sep 12, 2015 20:13 |  #26

I started off with a pure love of the "look" of Zeiss images. I had a little experience with MF, but it was years ago in the film days (I was a youth, but I am not that old). But I was confident that I could do it and just went for it. No regrets at all! I love my zeiss 100mm Makro and if I ever had to start selling off gear in order to buy food, it would be the last to go. I also love my 50mm ziess. I actually bought both 50mm unsure of which one I wanted. A wise man told me that I don't need two 50mm lenses and so I finally picked one and listed it for sale (tough choice). If you are willing to spend the money on a zeiss, then you will force yourself to learn how to use it. And MF is not that hard! So I say go for it! I am not sure I would choose A 135 or 21mm Focal lengths as my first MF. I have the canon 135 and like it a lot, but it isn't used as much as my 100mm and 21mm is pretty wide if you are not shooting landscapes. Have you considered a 35mm? Or hey if you want a 50mm I could sell you a nice one ;)


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ceriltheblade
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Sep 13, 2015 02:03 |  #27

thanks for the input.

I am interested in the 135 focal length with a fast aperture for portraiture.
I really like the canon 135, though I have (not-so) secretly wished for IS on the unit.
There was once even a rumor of a possible 135 OS art in the works.... though it seems that it was just a rumor.

I am worried that my hands may not be stable enough to hold that focal length still enough without IS/OS/VR etc

but with that I really like the look....

The 21 - I have always liked the look of the focal length...
i will indeed though look at the 35

and the 100 - as I said above - we will wait and see. I don't think it will be my first foray into the world of MF


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little ­ canon
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Sep 22, 2015 20:25 as a reply to  @ ceriltheblade's post |  #28

Yes the 135 can be tricky without IS if you don't watch your shutter speed. Thankful the ISO on camera now is so much better and you can bump that up to keep a good shutter speed. I find that 1/125 is good with the canon and the Zeis 100mm. I have take pics with it as low as 1/80 with good results, but it make me nervous.

Zeiss lenses are addictive! I would have more if I could afford it- and my camera rolling case if full so where would I put another lens?


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