5Ds or 5DsR

Hello Guys/Girs.

I have been looking at those 5Ds bodies, since I am looking forward to purchase one, and was wondering...

Almost everyone on this forum is like:
I have a (or will get a) 5DsR since it is sharper.

Yet I am very sure, that Canon did build with purpose 2 bodies.
If everyone is going for the 5DsR, what is the 5Ds good for?!

I mainly shoot portraits, glamour/nude, etc. So basicly people.

What would be better suited for me, and if the 5DsR, then what is the 5Ds good for?!

Thank you in advance.
Note: I don't want to argue wether I should get a 5Ds or not, but which one?

The main difference is the AA filter: which Canon uses for reducing moire in video. Since the 5Ds is not intended for video, I could see why the 5DsR is pretty much the defacto camera to get for high MP.

As the 5DSR bypasses the low pass filter, there is a greater chance of moire especially with things like fabrics and such but you gain some resolving ability as the image is not blurred. The 5DS has the traditional low pass filter which reduced moire. So for portraits and people, the 5DS is probably better suited to what you shoot. The 5DSR is better for things like landscapes where maximum resolution is needed.

The AA filter is not there to just reduce moire in video, but in all images. Unfortunatly even these latest sensors cannot out resolve the best lenses, and so are still prone to aliasing effects. The problem with aliasing effects is that they cannot be removed from the image automatically. When removed manually the filtering will also remove real image data at the same spatial frequency, as they are impossible to tell apart.

The resolution cut off frequency (Nyquist frequency or limit) of the 5DS cameras is quite close to the resolution of the best Canon lenses, if you ignore the Bayer CFA, and calculating the effect of the CFA on resolution is quite hard, it could in worse case reduce the Nyquist by half. That could mean that for certain colours it would be very easy to induce moire in the 5DSR. I would probably want to see resolution raised to 75-80 MP (for 35mm FF) before removal of the AA filter was relativly risk free.

This is most likely where you are shooting subject with very fine cloth, silk and fine nylons for example being especially likely to induce moire.

Alan

BigAl007 wrote in post #17693430
The AA filter is not there to just reduce moire in video, but in all images. Unfortunatly even these latest sensors cannot out resolve the best lenses, and so are still prone to aliasing effects. The problem with aliasing effects is that they cannot be removed from the image automatically. When removed manually the filtering will also remove real image data at the same spatial frequency, as they are impossible to tell apart.

The resolution cut off frequency (Nyquist frequency or limit) of the 5DS cameras is quite close to the resolution of the best Canon lenses, if you ignore the Bayer CFA, and calculating the effect of the CFA on resolution is quite hard, it could in worse case reduce the Nyquist by half. That could mean that for certain colours it would be very easy to induce moire in the 5DSR. I would probably want to see resolution raised to 75-80 MP (for 35mm FF) before removal of the AA filter was relativly risk free.

This is most likely where you are shooting subject with very fine cloth, silk and fine nylons for example being especially likely to induce moire.

Alan

Hey, Alan.

Thanks, so if I do understand you properly, for someone, who shoots a lot of portraits, the 5Ds would be the better choice?

gjl711 wrote in post #17693354
As the 5DSR bypasses the low pass filter, there is a greater chance of moire especially with things like fabrics and such but you gain some resolving ability as the image is not blurred. The 5DS has the traditional low pass filter which reduced moire. So for portraits and people, the 5DS is probably better suited to what you shoot. The 5DSR is better for things like landscapes where maximum resolution is needed.

Yep that is also what I figured myself, and Alan said too. Seems its the 5Ds then

I would argue that it's mainly beneficial for video. For fabrics, with high MP sensors, you can get bad moire patterns when scaling native resolution. I notice this on a 4K monitor with D810 files. When fitting an image to screen, with Windows image viewer, the image is nice and sharp (but there is an extreme moire type pattern on all fabrics). On web browsers, it's less pronounced. If I scale resolution in Adobe software, then all fabrics look natural. So to summarize, moire seems less an issue with high MP sensors for still images.

Well yes the higher the resolution the less chance you will suffer from aliasing. The thing is that modern lenses for 35mm type DSLRs, even the APSc crop ones, are able to outresolve the best sensors, although a 24 MP crop sensor may be getting close. If you have a lens that can provide resolution above the Nyqyist frequency then you will see the results of the aliasing, provided the subject contains componets at those frequencies. I think that the main reason that the observablity of aliasing is so variable is down to the Bayer CFA which could theroretically halve the Nyquist frequency compared to the Sensel pitch of the lens. Oh and of course you need a lens capable of the necessary resolution. If you are not using the highest resolving lenses again the chances of aliasing are reduced.

The issue with seeing moire in images on screen at sizes other than 100% is down to the interpolation algorithm that is used to render the image. In a lot of situations I beleive that x number of pixels are simply dropped, this is very likely to lead to moire effects becomming visible. I think this is done for a couple of reasons, it is both easy to do not requiring much skill to program, or much processing power to do it. The more complex algorithms requiring more skill and processing power to implement.

Alan

The difference between the two is minimal. Personally I think Canon is just retracing the same path Nikon already took - wouldn't be surprised if the 5DS and 5DS R are the last of their kind (a single new camera model provided in two versions). As with the D800 and D800E, I expect the next model to have no OLP filter at all.

I first ordered the 5DS. It was cheaper, avaialble, still 50.6 MP, and I new the differences would be minimal. BUT, after a while my OCD kicked in and I had to order the 5DS R. Then I spent two weeks trying sell my 5DS for a low price - even down to $2800 including shipping - and I got no takers. SO, I'll offer up this observation: moire vs. max detail issues aside you might consider going with the 5DS R for sheer practical purposes - it may be easier to resell than the 5DS.

David Arbogast wrote in post #17694051
The difference between the two is minimal. Personally I think Canon is just retracing the same path Nikon already took - wouldn't be surprised if the 5DS and 5DS R are the last of their kind (a single new camera model provided in two versions). As with the D800 and D800E, I expect the next model to have no OLP filter at all.

agreed.

i've shot thousands of images so far with the 5dsr so far of all types and so far yes, i noticed moire once, in a single image of a girl's dress. but that's about it. and that's cause i was looking for it, given all the discussion on this. i might have had the same things with my 5d3 but never noticed.

i think unless if you specifically do a lot of shots of scenarios where moire is highly probable, like always shooting clothing and such, i'd just get the 5dsr. also note, the 5ds was always available, but the 5dsr has been sold out and very hard to get for the longest time. so that tells you which is in more demand.

Which relates to overall resolution. Some programs utilize the system color profile, others use the "standard" Windows color profile. Ever since using a calibration system, I've noticed my graphics programs will utilize its color profile, but Windows Image Viewer doesn't. It also probably just throws pixels away instead of doing an interpolation in resizing (and does render really bad moire type patterns). I'm not sure if 80MP in a FF sensor is acceptable or not. 50MP is just pushing it. The main issue with high density sensors is diffraction limits. Haven't seen much reviews on image quality with a f16 or f32 on the 5DsR...but the image wouldn't be as sharp since the sensor is diffraction limited. The other factor with the high pixel density of the 5Ds is that you have to raise shutter speed (reviews say as much as twice the FL).

Instead of competing with more MPs, I hope camera manufacturers with start increasing dynamic range. With my 3D graphics, I'll use 32bit and 16bit images...would be nice to at least have RAWs that are full 16bit.

Moire? So in this case i shouldn't use my digital medium format at all because it means i will see moire like hell, but this digital medium format is my first choice for portraits and studio things, and because of that if i have the choice then i will go with 5DsR no doubt and don't think about moire at all, with my digital medium format i can't get any JPEG out of camera, so i must play with each RAW file, so for me one step for moire correction if i see is not a big deal, better to have moire and correct it but you know you have more details or better details or sharper than less details or less sharper with no moire, it is like if you want highest quality then you accept an issue and solve it, or go with less quality [Still high, so i said less not low or lower] then any issue is not there.

Also, you may shoot portraits in nature or outdoor, so maybe the subject is a bit far, so then you don't see much of moire, and with higher details or say no AA this will help for environment or surrounding details too.