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Thread started 09 Sep 2015 (Wednesday) 07:30
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7D MK II BIF Question

 
digital ­ paradise
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Sep 20, 2015 13:24 |  #61

I had to correct something.

Orignal

So off and on I have been trying to find any documentation on it and finally I found info from Art Morris. Now we know we can shoot in 4 point or 8 point expansion in either case 2 or 5 and 6 (or any other) and get the same results as long as the TS (and accel/decel) is set the same.


Correction. I removed the accel/decel as it has nothing to do with expansion. Sorry about that.

So off and on I have been trying to find any documentation on it and finally I found info from Art Morris. Now we know we can shoot in 4 point or 8 point expansion in either case 2 or 5 and 6 (or any other) and get the same results as long as the TS is set the same.


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Sep 20, 2015 13:37 |  #62

apersson850 wrote in post #17714527 (external link)
Switching is when an assisting point takes over tracking from another point.

I think the reason I described it this the way I did was to separate the assist points in expansion from the AF switching adjustment in the case parameters during discussions. So that is OK with me. I can live with an assist point switching so long as we are on the same page about what the AF switching adjustment actually does.


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Sep 20, 2015 13:39 |  #63

Thanks very much for your responses.

I didn't say, my error, but the macro was the IS version. I did find the 400mm hard to get the hang of, but was getting some good results with it on the 550D in the end. I went out again today and tried my 15-85 lens - it seemed to focus pretty well - but I didn't have chance to try any fast moving object (mostly trying to keep my 4 year old from falling in the river). It's clear I need to keep practising - I'm at least feeling more comfortable that I don't have a poor focusing unit - it's just me!

Oh, and my aperture tended to be 5.6 - 8. But very little of any bird looked in focus.

Will take a look at that MF info - thanks. It's nothing I've ever tried before, so I don't want to make anything worse.

Another quick question. I have the old CS5 photoshop which isn't compatible with the new 7d Mk2. So looking to get the newer Lightroom program. However, I can't view my images unless I use the canon viewer or a free editor. Is there no free plug in that people use to provide a quick view to images?

Thanks again for your advice. I've taken lots of info from this forum and others - it's just a question of finding what works for me now.

Best wishes,

Paul




  
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Post edited over 8 years ago by digital paradise.
     
Sep 20, 2015 13:44 |  #64

I use both PS and Lr but always pre view using DPP which came with your camera. I select all or a few images, quick check and full screen. To delete I click on the X key and then after closing quick check down

Edit - Rating - select rejected images only

Then

File - move to trash


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Sep 20, 2015 13:47 |  #65

digital paradise wrote in post #17714619 (external link)
I think the reason I described it this the way I did was to separate the assist points in expansion from the AF switching adjustment in the case parameters during discussions. So that is OK with me. I can live with an assist point switching so long as we are on the same page about what the AF switching adjustment actually does.

I get the feeling we are not.

You have assist points in both zone and expansion. In expansion, it's the points not belonging to the selected one. In zone, it's the points not currently tracking. You have switching in both expansion and zone. In both cases, it's when one of the assisting points take over from the tracking one.

The difference is that the primary point remains being the same in expansion, but it changes dynamically in zone.
I understand that switching to an assist point may make more sense in zone than expansion mode when using a 7D Mark II, since there are more points in the zone, but when using a 1DX it makes equal sense, as there are the same number of assist points in a zone as when using eight point expansion.

Morris is wrong, by the way.


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Sep 20, 2015 14:02 |  #66

No disrespect but whether they assist or switch does not matter to me. I know they are working and I'm having no problems in and case or AF mode and I have used them all. On purpose one day I shot in cases 1, 2 5 and 6 and used single, expanded and zone in each case and nailed BIF in every scenario.

Art Morris has documented it and he is in a video representing Canon. If this is so I'd need some official proof which would have to be at the Canon level. I asked tech support and the only thing they could tell me is you can't see any assist points doing anything in expanded and AI Servo which I already knew.


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Post edited over 8 years ago by apersson850.
     
Sep 20, 2015 14:05 |  #67

All right, in a previous post you wrote that the semantics regarding switching vs. assisting seemed to bother you. Maybe it did then, or I totally misunderstood.

The user's manual (for the 1DX) claims Morris is wrong. Canon's own AF guide for the 1DX claims that Morris is wrong. I think that's enough.


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Post edited over 8 years ago by digital paradise.
     
Sep 20, 2015 14:34 as a reply to  @ apersson850's post |  #68

I was just trying to separate them for the purpose of AF switching. In one shot you see both the centre and assist point. You can't see anything in AI Servo but when you are tracking for a long time and the centre point loses AF and an assist point is activated is that it? Will it track with that assist point for the next 5 minutes or try to re-aquire focus with the primary centre point? I see it as assisting, you see it as switching. I don' think that is a bid deal.

You blame me for asking for proof when you say someone is wrong. It is not like I don't trust you. I don't have that manual, just the 5D3 and 7D2. In his document he refers to the 1DX and 5D3 and all 3 in the video. I'll guess I'll have to look it up.


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Sep 20, 2015 14:51 |  #69

There could be a purpose of calling it assisting if a point that's not the primary point is tracking, and switching when assisting not only means taking over the responsibility for tracking, but also for being the primary AF point.

Defined like that, there's a difference between single point with expansion and zone. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same. Expansion being a tad more predictable, especially compared to the larger zones now available on some cameras, like the 7D Mark II.

I'm not blaming you for anyting, at least not intentionally. Not being a native English speaker sometimes makes it difficult to get the correct nuance expressed. Sorry if I insulted you or something.


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Sep 20, 2015 14:57 |  #70

I dowloaded it and found it and says the exact same thing the 5D3 and 7D2 manuals say and this is the exact same thing I have been questioning. Canon tech had no real answers and I asked if there possibly of a typo or missing info and they were very abrupt and said we are not making any changes or amendments to the manuals. Can't say that I blame them.

There could be a dozen people in a department writing manuals and it is easy to miss something. The part that I read in the 1DX matches the 5D3 word for word and the 7D2 has a little more. Cut and paste.

Another thing I have said maybe not here but it is not written very and does not provide enough detail. I don't know if Art Morris is wrong or right but I know he communicates with Canon at levels we can't and tests for them. It is the closet thing I have found to something I have been interested in getting more info on for a while. I don't spend every waking hour on it but I come back to it once in a while.

I really do not want to upset upset you. I respect your opinion and knowledge. You have helped me in the past.


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Sep 20, 2015 14:57 |  #71

apersson850 wrote in post #17714684 (external link)
Sorry if I insulted you or something.

No you didn't and I just said the same thing :-)


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Sep 20, 2015 15:02 |  #72

Well, my manual and AF guides claim that the AF point switch setting inside the AF cases are working with single point with expansion, zone and all points. Not just all points as Morris seems to say, if I understood it right.
Due to this, and due to the simple fact that it just doesn't make technical sense that it would work with all points only (Canon's developers usually have a lot of technical sense) makes me claim that Morris is wrong and that it's just an accident that this went into an instruction video. I didn't look at the video myself.


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Sep 20, 2015 15:24 |  #73

I know the manuals say it but I still don't think there is enough detail. Not the first time I have seen that. Art Morris either provided more information or is wrong.

It makes technical sense to me. I could see the assist points switching at a fixed rate. The assist points are so close and circled around the centre point and the AF system is lighting fast. Also I could shoot in single point and have TS set to -2 and completely lose the bird a few seconds and it still stays in focus. Expansion would be more helpful if you set TS to +2 and it is prone to dropping the subject.

Well I guess I have to keep looking and try find out if Mr. Morris is correct or not.


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Sep 20, 2015 15:36 |  #74

Just in case I want to be clear. I have never said the assist do not switch or assist in expansion. You will l notice I said switch first:-) They do. My question from the beginning is do they switch faster if I adjust AF switching from 0 to 1 or 2. I'm convinced they do in zone which is what Art Morris is saying. Based on what he saying they switch at a fixed rate in expansion.


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Sep 20, 2015 21:47 |  #75

I hope this article (From Chuck Westfall of Canon) on the 1D4 AF Expansion system, (which is as far as I know the only EOS body that allows expansion to jump up to the entire array of AF points, in the 1D4's case, that's all 45 af points of expansion) can solve your debate?

http://learn.usa.canon​.com …_auto_focus_art​icle.htmlp (external link)

Although this Article and excerpt are discussing the 1D4, most of the behavior explaining AF expansion applies to all Canon bodies with expansion. The only thing totally specific to the 1D4 is CFN 8-3, ie; the part where expansion will track beyond the initial selected and limited surrounding AF points. CFN 8-1 an 8-2 are identical in behavior to other bodies.

Chuck Westfall
Canon USA Professional Products Engineering & Solutions Division.
wrote:

AF point expansion

With C.Fn III -8 and a manually-selected AF point, AF can be expanded by using the AF points adjacent to the selected AF point. If the manually-selected AF point cannot achieve focus, focus can be achieved with one of the adjacent (expanded) AF points. The range of expandable AF points is shown in the diagram given here:

These settings can be effective for shooting a moving subject that is difficult to track with just one AF point. The [1: Left/right AF point] and [2:Surrounding AF points] options are the same as the EOS-1D Mark III. The [3: All 45 points area] setting is a very powerful option that’s new to the 1D series. It effectively allows the photographer to manually select the starting point for focus detection while gaining the ability to track the subject anywhere it moves within the 45-point Area AF ellipse indicated on the focusing screen. (By comparison, when automatic focusing point selection is combined with AI Servo AF, the subject must be initially detected with the center AF point.) Moreover, C.Fn III-8-3 allows the camera to display the active focusing point in the viewfinder as it follows the subject during a burst shooting sequence.

Here’s how it works: When C.Fn III-8-3 is combined with AI Servo AF, up to 18 AF points adjacent to the manually-selected AF point will become active. Each time the subject moves to another AF point, the expanded AF points will also shift to surround the AF point covering the subject. In response to the subject's movement, the AF point lit in red also shifts continuously. Since the clump of active focusing points can shift automatically according to subject movement, all 45 focusing points are effectively available for burst mode shooting.

As long as the subject is within the Area AF frame, autofocusing of the subject will continue. This is the same logic as with automatic AF point selection. However, since the focusing is concentrated over a smaller area than during automatic AF point selection, focusing a particular subject is easier. Also, if the main AF point loses the subject by a considerable amount during automatic AF point selection, all 45 AF points are used to search for the subject.

With C.Fn III-8-3, the 18 expanded AF points are instead used to search for the subject. For example, even if there is an object closer than the main subject, the camera can still quickly and securely track the main subject.

If One-Shot AF is set and focus cannot be achieved with the manually-selected AF point, focus is executed with an expanded area of up to 44 AF points. Subject detection is done in three instant steps, with 6, 18, then 44 AF points. Because the manually-selected AF point is where the subject is supposed to be, focusing is easier with the AF points closer to the main AF point. Better yet, DPP 3.7.3 and higher can display the active focusing point for each image when C.Fn III-8-3 is used together with manual focusing point selection, even when the active focusing point differs from the manually selected focusing point.

C.Fn III-8-1, III-8-2, or III-8-3 must be on for C.Fn III-4 [AI Servo AF tracking method] to become fully effective. The exception occurs when using Automatic Focusing Point Selection, in which case both settings for C.Fn III-4 are effective.

Regardless of which C.Fn III-4 setting is used, the C.Fn III-2 setting [AI Servo tracking sensitivity] generally takes priority. However, if a subject blocks the main subject when the C.Fn III-4 setting is 0, the camera refocuses on the new subject regardless of the C.Fn III-2 setting.


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