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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 30 Dec 2015 (Wednesday) 22:26
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Adding a Mirrorless, Maybe a switch.

 
KenjiS
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Post edited over 2 years ago by KenjiS. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 12, 2016 19:11 |  #91

What speedy said on the eyepoint on the GX7 was how it felt. Definitely felt like a short eyepoint

the GX8 is more than i want to spend on just the body, I know its a good camera, but its just more than i was going to spend on ONLY a body. Id rather put the money into the glass. Same with the A7. Im not big on used for the aforementioned allergies to things, im willing to consider used from a retailer with a return policy in case i have a problem, but not a private seller.

As for my leaning, its the a6000 vs the OM-D EM10 II, I played with an EM10 (not the II) and i preferred its viewfinder to the a6000, the a6000 was better than the GX7 by several miles but i still felt it wasnt "right" But thats odd, since i can pull up the specs and the a6000 viewfinder's eyepoint is actually a hair higher than the EM10 (And the II is slightly less) so this is very very weird unless eyepoint isnt the entire issue... Could it be the rangefinder style position of the a6000/GX7/GX8 is the problem? (I mean the GX7 is still a 17.5mm eyepoint, GX8 is 21, A6000 is 21.4, EM10 is 20, EM10II is 19.4 and my 7D is 22)

So with the discussion of kits, i used to cart around the 7D and one of several lenses wherever i went, the 35mm f/2, 28mm f/1.8, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 or the 15-85. The 15-85 and 50 are a tidge on the bulky heavy side, but theres no question on their IQ, both lenses rock and i find few faults with them, IS is useful frequently in case i need a little more depth of field. The 35 f/2 had great sharpness, but the bokeh was abysmal, and i remember several images had a terrible "double image" to them which made my eyes -hurt- to look at, The 28mm f/1.8 did not have that issue, and had a nice rendition at times, but could also be a bit softer than i wanted, suffered from flare, bad CA and other "older lens" problems. I shot the primes at f/2 frequently, even the Sigmalux (Sigmalux's bokeh looks better at f/2.. on the 28 it cut the CA and stuff a lot going from f/1.8 to f/2 for some reason, f/2.8 made it better) The biggest issue was 50mm on a crop is just too long for some things and carrying 2 lenses around when im talking the 7D was too much 90% of the time unless i went SPECIFICALLY for photography purposes.

Also when i was at the store i took a quick look and I still massively prefer SLRs for some things. I decided definitively I want a mirrorless as a compliment, Not a replacement.

So quick compare.

7D and 28mm f/1.8 = 45mm f/2.9
7D and 35mm f/2 = 56mm f/3.2
a6000 and 35mm f/1.8 OSS = 52.5mm f/2.7
OM D EM10 II and 25mm f/1.8 = 50mm f/3.6 (Alternately, 25mm f/1.4 Summilux would give me 50mm f/2.8)
A7 + 55 f/1.8 = 55 f/1.8

Heres.. so far.. the pricing i worked on those 4 options:

Used A7 + Used 55 f/1.8 ZA off Amazon = $1678 - This is basically out, Way too much

Used A7 + Used 35mm f/2.8 ZA off Amazon = $1497 - Still too much, Forget the A7 I think. I do not want converted glass. I want -native- glass, with autofocus.

Open Box GX8 + Olympus 25mm f/1.8 = $1259 - Borderline, This is about the limit right here. Was trying around $1400 and I really wanted 2 lenses out of it, Not one. This leaves me no budget for a second lens for a while and thus makes me uncomfortable. But I still looked.

New EM10 II + 25mm f/1.8 = $898

Sony a6000 + 35mm f/1.8 OSS = $996

I can also get a 25mm Summilux for the m4/3 for an extra $50 over the f/1.8... Which to be honest, isnt a bad idea. I think I like how 25mm looks on m4/3 better than the 20mm (I might simply have disliked the 20mm focal length and its perspective in other words)


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Charlie
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Charlie.
     
Jan 12, 2016 19:52 as a reply to  @ KenjiS's post |  #92

you forgot one options, A7 + 28mm f2. That's the most economical piece of glass. Another option is the A7r which can be found for about 1K + 28mm f2. Along with the crop mode, you still get around 15-16mp in crop mode, so essentially, the lens behaves as 28 + 50ish.

there's an A7 + 28-70 kit on keh for 1120. Not the best price, but reputable seller.


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Jan 12, 2016 19:54 |  #93

The VF issue could be the fact that it is a rangefinder style camera. I had 2 bodies, one was a NEX 6 and I hated the EVF. a while later I decided to try the E-M10 and it was a huge difference, not just because of resolution or anything like that, it was because of where it is located. I had a hard time getting my eye right in the NEX but with the E-M10 it didn't feel that much different than my Canons.


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AlanU
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Jan 12, 2016 20:07 |  #94

Kenji,

Sounds like your having fun ;-)a

Why dont you think long and hard and buy 1 body and 1 lens. You already stated this platform is your dslr's "side kick".

Isn't there a Sony 24mm f/1.8 for the A6000? This is more logical for a wider angle than a 35mm on a crop.

For small form factor with ultimate IQ I would say go for the A7 platform. The A6000 is another great camera if your going to use a 24mm or 35mm f/1.8 prime for shallow dof. Only drawback is that the zooms are lacking and slow at the moment.

I still think the A6000 will provide much nicer files than your 7d. I also warn you that the M43 will also very likely surpass your 7d image quality. Granted I'm talking about normal photography not involved in super fast action.

Are you looking into getting a small form factor camera that is current? If you get an older model like an Oly E-M5 mk1 this will save you $$$ and you'll have more $$$ to get more impressive glass.

If your wanting the most current M43 I'd say jump for a GX8 or flagship E-M1 and think long and hard for 1 lens (for now). You will be MUCH HAPPIER with the autofocus and then slowly buy lenses.


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KenjiS
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Jan 12, 2016 23:07 |  #95

Charlie wrote in post #17855973 (external link)
you forgot one options, A7 + 28mm f2. That's the most economical piece of glass. Another option is the A7r which can be found for about 1K + 28mm f2. Along with the crop mode, you still get around 15-16mp in crop mode, so essentially, the lens behaves as 28 + 50ish.

there's an A7 + 28-70 kit on keh for 1120. Not the best price, but reputable seller.

I actually got very close to just ordering the A7 and 55... but i backed off.. I dont think it suits my photographic "style" I dont shoot people very often. I go more for inanimate objects, scenes, still life, my food or drink at dinner in poor light, cars, flowers, bugs, etc... Part of my "thing" i guess is i do like getting really close to subjects..and thats where the FF A7 starts to fail, Most of the lenses are 1:7, 1:8 in repro ratio, I tend to enjoy lenses that get to 1:5 or better.. Its just me i guess, Im weird :D

As stated above, there IS another option, the Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 for the a6000.. Which is roughly a 36mm f/2.8 lens, IE, Equal to the 35mm Sonnar on the A7.. I cant rival the 55 f/1.8, True, but just about every native lens for the A7 is $1000... The A6000 i could throw together a kit with the 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar (I found a good deal on a 24mm f/1.8 FYI, only $200 more than the 35mm f/1.8) I think my sticking point is i still really find few other lenses i actually -like- on the Sony.. The 16-70 is nice though, and i might switch my 15-85 for it.. Not sure i see a big reason for the 90mm f/2.8 Macro, its not smaller nor lighter than my 100L, which means it cant really "go everywhere" with me.. Good lens, Most certainly wont insult it

As for IQ, yeah, even the GX7 showed my 7D is certainly not top of the heap in IQ anymore, I was surprised at the fact of having to do NO sharpening to those files and they were crisp as a spring day, Even ISO3200 looked great with excellent detail retention... the 7D has a strong AA filter, Not surprised.

-------------

I think ive stuck down to two options, Sony's A6000 with the 24mm f/1.8 Zeiss, Maybe add the 16-70 f/4 to that down the line (Replacing my 15-85 perhaps) Theres no really great macro option that "makes sense" to me, the 90mm is bloody huge (Or at least it looks it in reality.. it looks far bigger than my 100L) so i see little point in buying that versus just adapting my 100L for $100. Id really be all for the sony if it had a small macro of some kind. But it doesnt.

Option 2 is the Olympus OM-D E-M10 II with the 25mm Summilux or 17mm f/1.8 Olympus. Later on, add the 12-40 f/2.8 and that 75mm f/1.8 looks delectable for larger flower specimens, For macro use, i have the 45mm Elmarit OR the 60mm Olympus (Though that 12-40 has a wicked close focus distance)

Advantage to the Sony is the IQ and the Zeiss glass which produces a fantastic punchy 3d like render, the 16-70 is also more in line with my preferred range for a walkaround zoom lens and I REALLY like that 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar and its uber close focus distance. Disadvantage is just the fact that a lot of the lenses are pricey, Or just simply ones that dont make as much sense to use on a small camera like the a6000 (the 90mm Macro comes to mind, No weight savings on it vs the 100L) In theory i have an upgrade path into the A7, But in practice every lens id get for the a6000 pretty much locks me into using crop mode on the A7..

Olympus is more affordable on the whole, there are more lenses that interest me or would be useful for me, and those lenses are actually pretty good lenses on the whole On the whole the biggest thing the olympus gets me is a smaller lighter macro (the 60mm f/2.8), Oddly some of the other lenses are pretty close in size (the 25mm summilux and the 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar and the 12-40 and 16-70, the 16-70 is actually lighter)

Essentially the trade off is I lose a small light macro i can take everywhere on the Sony, Which actually kind of breaks my heart a bit.. I wish Sony had like, a 50mm f/2 Macro to be honest. But they do not. The 50mm f/1.8 is nice however.. Wonder if it takes an extension tube well

Theres also of course the question i had on the viewfinder, the A6000, while better than the GX7 still gave me issues, Whether its an "adapt" thing or a "No seriously this doesnt work" i couldnt answer.


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Jan 12, 2016 23:32 as a reply to  @ KenjiS's post |  #96

Sony does have a small macro in the 30mm 3.5.


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KenjiS
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Jan 12, 2016 23:41 |  #97

Nightdiver13 wrote in post #17856197 (external link)
Sony does have a small macro in the 30mm 3.5.

Yeah i just started looking it up, Photozone and them are "meh" towards it but im finding some very nice images shot with it.. Its also quite cheap


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Jan 14, 2016 09:35 |  #98
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I would say still go for a7, I had E-M5, E-M1, E-M10, while excellent cameras, and E-M1 was/is my favorite camera ever (so far) even better then a7RII

M43 sensor did bother me, size of it, DoF, shape of it, I generally don't like 4:3 ratio, and in 3:2 it was only 12MP, for a camera that was over 1,000 dollars that simply not good enough.

At one point I might get a used E-M1 or E-M5II again when price drops a lot.
If Olympus ever releases full frame camera with same features like E-M1 I will buy it right away no hesitation.

A7 series are the best rounded off mirrorless cameras, If you can't afford a7II or A7RII, go for A7, I would skip the A7R, I had one and the shutter shock on that camera was pretty bad.

one huge HUGE benefit of mirrorless camera is AF is on sensor, you never have to worry about microadjustments you will awalwayset sharper pictures, no back or front focusing issues.

bottom line is, whatever you pick it will be substantially better then the aged 7D.


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Jan 14, 2016 12:38 as a reply to  @ nekrosoft13's post |  #99

Which EM-1 features do you wish the A7 series had? I'm not super familiar with Olympus.


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KenjiS
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Jan 14, 2016 19:48 |  #100

I ended up ordering the EM10 II, 25mm f/1.4 Summilux and 60mm f/2.8 Oly Macro. If it doesnt work out i do not know what i will try next.. I might just give up on Mirrorless.

there were 3 major issues to me with the A7: the cost of lenses was simply too high coupled with the fact i really didnt like the poor MFD on almost every single lens for the system, As nice as the 55mm f/1.8 Sonnar and 35mm f/2.8 Sonnar are they are 1:7.1 and 1:8.3 respectively in terms of repro ratio/MFD.. I like my lenses more in the 1:5 range.. FWIW, my Sigma 50 (as much as i love it) bumps the MFD often enough for me to consider it a problem, Which is about the biggest complaint i have with it (And its in that 1:7 range, i think its about the same as the 55 f/1.8 Sonnar in fact)

The third thing was.. how can i put this.. while the lenses are smaller and lighter on the A7 than a DSLR, I felt the reduced size of the body coupled with the fact the lenses are heavier versus a m4/3 or APS-C mirrorless made for a less comfortable hold on the body. The A7II/SII/RII grip is better but the placement of the C1/C2 buttons is very uncomfortable for me and my hands and i felt operating it was harder.

I tried super hard to justify the Sony and the cost just made me feel im in "Replacing the 7D entirely territory" and the system simply will not do that for me personally. No long telephotos and several lenses which completely defeat the point of the size/weight savings (see the 90mm OSS macro thats identical in weight/size to my 100L) coupled with the fact that at the end of the day i still genuinely prefer the control layout and handling on SLRs like the 5D Mark III or D610 to even the A7RII (I played with them all in store) For an actual 7D replacement I'd need a 24-105 equivalent, something in the 150-600 kind of range, and a 100mm+ macro, plus a fast 50mm equivalent , the A7 gives.. 2 of those lenses natively.. Converting the A-mount 70-400 is an option, but i've read very mixed things on the converter's AF performance. Overall its a lot of "Well i can make this work" and what I felt was "compromising" for what is over $4000 of investment (A7II, 90mm f/2.8 OSS and 50mm f/1.8 Sonnar) and yes, if we're talking replacing 7D I'd probubly go for the A7II because of the in body stabilizer and more substantial grip (I'd learn to deal with the C1/C2 buttons i guess, or remap their functions)

Additionally, I simply went over and handled a variety of FF DSLRs, the D610, D750 and 5D Mark III.. and I genuinely preferred how they handled and felt in my hand to the A7II. I know its an apples to oranges comparison, but if i was dropping that level of cash, I wouldnt want compromises. I'd be more likely to spend the money on a D610 and have something I didnt feel I was "compromising" on.

Dont misunderstand, I LIKE the A7 series, I think its a superb camera, but I shouldnt have to "try" to like something or "try" to feel its the right option for me, and thats what I kept having to do. I want to see Sony continue to improve them and add lenses to the lineup, I WANT Sony to turn it into an option I'd happily say "yes" to.


Back to what I chose:

The 25mm f/1.4 is very close to a 35mm f/2 on my 7D in FoV/DoF reasons, I feel i should have little reason to complain, and the GX7's files were in many ways better than the higher resolution 7D (Probubly due to what appears to be a significantly lighter AA filter.. I actually believe the EM10 II has NO LPF, which should help even more) If I dont really like what i see then I can return it. the only reason the GX7 went back so fast was the viewfinder was unusable for me and my hand hurt way too much after using it. The 35mm f/1.8 on the A6000 would offer no real world benefit to the 25mm Summilux. As for the 60, I thought a lot on it, I quite liked the idea of the 45 Elmarit (Being smaller and lighter fitting in with my "goal") but the 60 is in many ways a better "macro" lens. Its just a lot closer to the 100L on my 7D (Not a bad thing, i just hoped for a shorter macro in the say, 50-90 range vs the 160mm of my 100L on my 7D to give me a wider option when i might need it)

the EM10 II seemed a good idea as i liked the Mark I in store, and the II has a lot of advancements. I considered a used EM1 as well.

And yes, my aging 7D has now grown very apparent when Im the one shooting files and comparing on my screen. Its easy to mentally write off a good shot from another camera by another person in my brain as someone being very good with their equipment (And I prize the results I've gotten from the "poor" 7D over the years) but when im shooting them and I see "oh hey, theres a lot less sharpening needed and im retaining a lot more detail at ISO3200" yeah.. I take notice.


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KenjiS
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Jan 18, 2016 14:49 |  #101

Duh duh duh... its here :D

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Battery charging, Will be some nice snow, Planning to go out later tonight when the sun goes down a little more.

Gotta say btw, the 25mm f/1.4 Summilux was Amazon Warehouse and supposedly has scratches, but it looks pretty much new to me, i looked all over it and it looks perfect.. Because it was "scratched and damaged" it was 50% off... I think i got a good deal

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Jan 18, 2016 16:22 as a reply to  @ KenjiS's post |  #102

Amazon Warehouse deals have never let me down.


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KenjiS
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Jan 18, 2016 17:20 |  #103

So far toyed with it and shot a bunch with it..

-Extremely well made for its pricepoint

-AF is far better than the GX7. Awesome

-The Summilux is every bit what i hoped it would be

-Shooting at night with f/1.4 + 5 stop IS = Awesome

-Viewfinder works perfectly for me

No actually my only let down is the 60mm macro so far... The AF isnt "slow" which surprised me, but its issue is it sometimes, even with the limiter, cant seem to figure out at all what to focus on, Then problem 2 rears its ugly head, its focus by wire, and the FBW is geared towards accuracy not speed, Which makes manual focusing a real pain in the backside. The bad part to me is besides the weight savings i was going nuts for m4/3's tilty flippy screen goodness for low angle macro shots and its just not working out as well. Plus i feel the lightweight might be working AGAINST me for macro as its so light its hard for me to actually keep it stable. The 60mm is sharp as a tack though, Like oy. I just think id reach for my 7D and 100L instead :(

Not giving up yet mind you, just sharing my initial thoughts. Gonna give it at least a week.

*edit* and im seeing a lot of images where the AF just fell on its face and failed, which i couldnt tell in the viewfinder or rear screen, a bunch where the IS did nothing, dispite being engaged and a lot of "I could do better with no IS on the 7D" :(


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KenjiS
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Jan 18, 2016 18:17 |  #104

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First batch of images from it... Theres 2 more on my Flickr i believe..

Overall i dont know.. as i said ill try to give it a week..

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Jan 18, 2016 21:23 |  #105

I owned several Sony Nex bodies and they were fine. AF was slow and lenses were chunky but IQ was superb. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing a cheap Nex 5 if one cropped up with a lens.

I began using a Panasonic GH4 at work and loved the lenses. I bought an Olympus EM5 and later an EM5II when it came out. Absolutely superb cameras. I might have even sold my Canon gear for them if not for one thing: they both broke within a week. The EM5 just bricked itself and the EM5II dials stopped working after just 2 days. I've owned 20+ Canon DSLRs since the nineties and have yet to experience a single body failure. It's a damn shame as the EM5II was a sublime bit of gear but I just can't trust the build of Olympus' gear and will never touch them again unfortunately :(

Wanting to stick with m4/3 I ended up buying a Panny GX7 and GM1. Brilliant little cameras, superb (tiny, cheap) lenses, touch screens, wi-fi, take almost any lens that has ever been produced with an adapter. The GM1 with a pancake or body cap lens on it fits in a shirt pocket. Will be acquiring a GX8 and maybe a G7 at some point :)


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