upgrading and need help....

here is a recent shoot 2 weeks ago

https://www.flickr.com​/gp/djnkatt/6yaC7g


I haven't looked at my "experiment" pics from last night yet although I will have them in soon.

just seems like every picture I take is blurry, or grainy. I tried increasing shutter speed last night and they looked very dark, although I'll once their in and if LR can fix that....

would love to hear your thoughts. really want to know if a much better camera body will help with the fuzzy/grainy/noise issues.. I know my T3i is bottom of the barrel, when I bought it 2 years ago I had no idea what I was doing.

I think I have it now narrowed down to an 80D or 5DIII somehow... seem the 5DIII should be able to hanlde these darker situations much better and would also aleviate the need for a short 24-70 lens too as its FF which would help those close up situations that I can't get with the 70-200 on the crop sensor.. I don't really want to have multiple lenses or cameras as it's already very hectic in there and so if there is a solution that gives me better use of my 70-200 while producing much better low light results it might be the best option?

I did notice much better focusing (or so I think), now that I fixed the AF to center point, it seemed more accurate and quicker... last night's gym is the worst around so I'll post them soon as I get them in. hopefully they are better focused and just need exposure help from LR lol.

Heya,

The T3i is not bottom of the barrel. It's perfectly fine for what you're doing. You actually did pretty well for ISO 6400 using that thing, those images look fine to me. The T3i has the same ISO performance, basically, as the T4i, T5i, 7D, 60D, etc. Nothing wrong with the T3i. Has the same sensor and processing abilities. The only "lesser" bits of the T3i is the AF system and it's build quality, ergonomics, etc. But that shouldn't be a big deal. Point is, it's a totally fine camera. You're not going to magically be better with a better camera. A new, better camera will help with some things, but the end result of all this is all on your (composition and getting exposure right, in the moment you want). Camera will help. But don't bank on it being the magic bullet, it won't be.

Grain is from high ISO. If you under-expose, at all, it will be very apparent with grain. This applies to a 5D3 too. I don't think your images are overly grainy. They actually look fine to me frankly.

Blur at 1/400s of someone running is normal. This is basic, but, they are moving faster. It takes 1/1000s to stop most human motion. Even then, you'll still see blur at the tip of things rotating (like the tip of a bat, club, etc, swinging). Reviewing your images, they are 1/400s. That's fine for slow movement and standing, etc. But for bursts of runs, throws, etc, it's too slow and will blur. The blur is not the camera's fault, it's your selection of exposure time.

When you increased the speed of your shutter and the images turned dark, it's because you didn't compensate for the loss of light with the other two exposure values (aperture, ISO). This is a fundamental basic. And this is a huge red flag that should largely state: do not buy anything right now, instead, absolutely learn exposure so that you don't make this kind of mistake. In fact, don't buy anything until the camera & lens are limiting you, and not the other way around. Currently, based on what you stated and did there, you are the limiting factor. This was not meant to sound cruel, it's just hard reality, and if you want help, the help starts with knowing exposure first and foremost and the basics of combining exposure and how to stop motion but retain exposure.

T3i + 85mm F1.8, manual, center point focus, AI servo, continuous drive, 1/1000s, F1.8, ISO 6400 and you're set with the same exposure, but with better motion stopping ability.

Or, same setup you have, with ISo 12,800 and 1/1000s shutter at F2.8.

If you have to add exposure with light room, there's a fundamental problem that you need to correct first, before spending money. If the above doesn't make sense, this is exactly why you shouldn't buy something. If it does make sense, then you know what to buy or not buy.

Very best,

ok thats somewhat good to hear and I appreciate the true opinions... so if I understand, given the settings of these gyms, the pictures with my t3I and 70-200 2.8 are not really going to get much better? So I had settings set about as good as they can be correct? as I go above 1/400 it gets dark and I cannot inrease ISO anymore so that means it's about the limit of what can be done with a 2.8?

I'm still not quite clear on what I'm doing wrong. You mention aperture and ISO but both are at the max available with my equipment in hand... at least I think. I see expandable 12800 ISO however not sure if that's going to help and my lens is wide open at 2.8 already.

I only question this as many people, including some in this thread, have great shots with a 70-200 2.8 so I'm just trying to figure out if they are in better lit places of if their better body and lens/ equipment is making the difference

heat00 wrote in post #17914359
ok thats somewhat good to hear and I appreciate the true opinions... so if I understand, given the settings of these gyms, the pictures with my t3I and 70-200 2.8 are not really going to get much better? So I had settings set about as good as they can be correct? as I go above 1/400 it gets dark and I cannot inrease ISO anymore so that means it's about the limit of what can be done with a 2.8?

I'm still not quite clear on what I'm doing wrong. You mention aperture and ISO but both are at the max available with my equipment in hand... at least I think. I see expandable 12800 ISO however not sure if that's going to help and my lens is wide open at 2.8 already.

I only question this as many people, including some in this thread, have great shots with a 70-200 2.8 so I'm just trying to figure out if they are in better lit places of if their better body and lens/ equipment is making the difference

Your camera does ISO 12,800. That's +1 stop of light. That makes up for the -1 stop of light that happens, when you change your shutter from 1/400s to 1/800s to better stop motion (to remove motion blur). If that doesn't make sense, then that's exactly why I'm saying you need to not purchase anything and instead focus on understanding exposure first and foremost, because this is a fundamental that you will have issues with no matter the camera setup.

And to stop motion, you need to be closer to 1/800s to 1/1000s in those gyms. To do that, you either need F2.8 and ISO 12,800, or F2 and ISO 6400. Again, if you don't understand how I arrived at those values, then this is exactly what you need to put your efforts into, and not into a better piece of equipment that you'll do the same thing with. Your 70-200 obviously cannot do F2. But your camera can do ISO 12,800. You can use a faster lens though, such as an 85mm F1.8, to avoid having to use ISO 12,800 to get to the shutter speed you need.

Again, there's a reason I stated T3i + 85mm F1.8 and the settings of 1/1000s, F1.8, ISO 6400.

Better shots are done with composition and no camera fixes that. That's all you.

Your lens and camera are fine. You could get slightly better ISO with a different camera.

Yes, some gyms are better lit. If they're not the ones you're in, then that's not going to help you.

I will say, if you are dead set on buying new equipment thinking that will help and that it has nothing to do with your knowledge of exposure and/or skill/technique, then look for a camera with an aggressive AF system with better low light AF ability, fast FPS, and at least 1 stop higher ISO performance. The only way to get faster than F2.8 is to move to a telephoto prime. To get better ISO, you would have to shoot a modern full frame (6D, 5D3), or a more recent APS-C (70D, 7D2, upcoming 80D), or APS-H (1D) such as the 1DIV. F2 primes would include things like the 85mm F1.8, 100 F2 and 135 F2L. Otherwise, you stick with a F2.8 zoom and just use higher ISO (you will use ISO 12,800 no matter what body you use, it's not magic, exposure is exposure).

Very best,

MalVeauX wrote in post #17914388
Your camera does ISO 12,800. That's +1 stop of light. That makes up for the -1 stop of light that happens, when you change your shutter from 1/400s to 1/800s to better stop motion (to remove motion blur). If that doesn't make sense, then that's exactly why I'm saying you need to not purchase anything and instead focus on understanding exposure first and foremost, because this is a fundamental that you will have issues with no matter the camera setup.

And to stop motion, you need to be closer to 1/800s to 1/1000s in those gyms. To do that, you either need F2.8 and ISO 12,800, or F2 and ISO 6400. Again, if you don't understand how I arrived at those values, then this is exactly what you need to put your efforts into, and not into a better piece of equipment that you'll do the same thing with. Your 70-200 obviously cannot do F2. But your camera can do ISO 12,800. You can use a faster lens though, such as an 85mm F1.8, to avoid having to use ISO 12,800 to get to the shutter speed you need.

Again, there's a reason I stated T3i + 85mm F1.8 and the settings of 1/1000s, F1.8, ISO 6400.

Better shots are done with composition and no camera fixes that. That's all you.

Your lens and camera are fine. You could get slightly better ISO with a different camera.

Yes, some gyms are better lit. If they're not the ones you're in, then that's not going to help you.

I will say, if you are dead set on buying new equipment thinking that will help and that it has nothing to do with your knowledge of exposure and/or skill/technique, then look for a camera with an aggressive AF system with better low light AF ability, fast FPS, and at least 1 stop higher ISO performance. The only way to get faster than F2.8 is to move to a telephoto prime. To get better ISO, you would have to shoot a modern full frame (6D, 5D3), or a more recent APS-C (70D, 7D2, upcoming 80D), or APS-H (1D) such as the 1DIV. F2 primes would include things like the 85mm F1.8, 100 F2 and 135 F2L. Otherwise, you stick with a F2.8 zoom and just use higher ISO (you will use ISO 12,800 no matter what body you use, it's not magic, exposure is exposure).

Very best,

Hey Marty,

Hoping you have a trick or suggestion for making this easier. I struggle with achieving perfect exposure too. I understand the exposure triangle and I often reference a DOF calc, I know (or so I've read) that every time the f-stop value halves, the light-collecting area quadruples. Etc, etc. I've read until several things but it's still not an "automatic" trigger in my mind when I compose a shot as to what my settings should be. I have to take several shots, look at my histogram and etc. Usually by the time I've got my settings, the moment or shot has passed. What's the easiest way to know this stuff inside and out? Is it simply memorization or just practice or both?

Thanks,
Bill

bsiegler wrote in post #17914503
Hey Marty,

Hoping you have a trick or suggestion for making this easier. I struggle with achieving perfect exposure too. I understand the exposure triangle and I often reference a DOF calc, I know (or so I've read) that every time the f-stop value halves, the light-collecting area quadruples. Etc, etc. I've read until several things but it's still not an "automatic" trigger in my mind when I compose a shot as to what my settings should be. I have to take several shots, look at my histogram and etc. Usually by the time I've got my settings, the moment or shot has passed. What's the easiest way to know this stuff inside and out? Is it simply memorization or just practice or both?

Thanks,
Bill

Hey Bill,

With a newer camera with a ton of dynamic range and a large sensor, you don't have to be careful even, and that's the beauty of shooting with something like the D810 or 1DXII. However, for the rest of us mortals with humble cameras that are not quite there to those levels of range, we have to be careful and try to get exposure right.

What you're referring to, and what the OP stated, are very different things. The OP stated they tried to increase shutter speed, but got a darker image so they stopped. They means they didn't change ISO nor aperture, where possible, to compensate and maintain exposure. What you're stating is basically, how to get exposure right, and keep it right, without missing time. For the OP, he/she needs to learn how exposure works and that knowledge relative to how to stop motion and understanding time compared to motion. For you, you have the right idea, you just need to make it more simple. That, I can help with.

For you, what you're doing, shoot RAW first and foremost, as this allows you to recover from error which is inevitable and also gives you the best ability to process noise. I will assume you're shooting high ISO, but this info applies even if not. When you enter a gym like this, before the game's action starts, you should already have exposure figured out and done. And you shouldn't have to change it really, as the court is generally even lit, just not very bright to a camera, relative to the speed needed to stop motion. You do this by either chimping a shot and looking at the histogram, or by using Live View and looking at the histogram. And then whatever that exposure value is with your setup, you're going to probably want to expose a bit more to the right, so that there's more information on the right side of your histogram, while maintaining the shutter speed you need, but not pushed so far to the right that highlights clip. This gives you the most latitude to process, helps a lot with noise, and you can drop exposure in post without it hurting the quality of the image, compared to attempting to recover underexpose which will hurt the quality of the image with worse noise. Sometimes, you will not have any more room to increase exposure, so in that case, you attempt to get exposure as correct as possible. In this thread's spirit, assume again a gym, you simply set your shutter to what it needs to be to stop motion (because who cares about anything if you have a blurry junk shot right?), and that's 1/800s for most things, up to 1/1000s for tips of hands/feet, etc, to stop motion. Slower is only ok if they're walking or standing and not running/sprinting/burs​ting/swinging/throwing​. So rule of thumb, you start with time (ie, shutter speed). From there, whatever aperture you can use for depth of field and light gobbling purposes, this is basically F2.8 on a zoom at best, or F1.8 or F2 on a common prime. After that you're left with ISO. To keep enough exposure, you will start around ISO 3200 and up to ISO 12,800 easily. Lower is better for noise, but a sharp frozen action photo with good composition and some grain is way better than a blurry photo, underexposure and poor composition and maybe less noise.

You shouldn't have to change your settings in the gym. You get exposure first. Shoot RAW. And you're basically done. Again, on lower model cameras, exposing to the right without clipping highlights will help with ISO noise and recovering shadows, etc. If you can't expose to the right, just expose as dead on as possible. If you have to compromise, you have to choose what's important: for basketball for me, I'd rather get a slightly underexposed image with frozen action and clean it up if I had to, than a blurry properly exposed image that I cannot fix with less noise. You may have to compromise some where if gear is a limit. But I can't stress enough that composition and capturing the moment is far more important, than having noise in an image or not.

So again, quick dirty way to do this relatively reliable (sports in a gym):

1. Manual mode. AI Servo. Continuous Drive. Shooting RAW.
2. Shutter speed based on stopping motion as needed. For running adults, this starts around 1/800s. Slower if walking or standing. Faster if trying to stop the end of a swinging objects or limb (this probably only will apply outside though).
3. Aperture wide open. If you're stopping down, you're in the sun at noon on a clear day. In a gym, you're wide open.
4. ISO to whatever it takes to get exposure correct, and if possible, slightly exposed to the right. This will easily start at ISO 3200, ISO 6400 and if need be, go to ISO 12,800 or higher if your camera can.
5. Meter the court and jersey's of the players. You want to ensure the whites are bright and white. It's the easiest thing to expose and check, get it right and you will have exposure for everything else.
6. Chimp a shot of a jersey that is white or has a lot of white. Look at histogram. Ensure no highlights are clipping. Push exposure to the right where possible. Or just get it correct. Expose again. Check histogram again.
7. Exposure shouldn't change enough for you to have to change values at this point unless some lights go out or suddenly turn on.
8. You're dialed in now. Focus on the game, you're set. You should be at the right locations for the action shots you want. Composition is more important than just having a snapshot. High FPS helps.
9. You have to know the game to know where the interesting action will be. So obviously get to know the game. Again, be where you need to be for the action compositions you want, and use high FPS.
10. You process the images from RAW, adjusting for highlights where necessary, etc, and noise processing comes first in the sequence before other things where possible.

Very best,

You definitely want to set your white balance before shooting. If your WB is off, your noise could actually look worse. Try that too at the next shoot.

The main reason that I suggest staying at ISO6400 and not the 12800 that you get from the H1 setting is that the H1 is not "true" ISO. The wole stop, non expanded ISO values are generated by using an electronic amplifier to boost the analogue signal coming from the sensor. Within certain limits this is by far the better way of gaining brightness in the image for any set shutter speed/aperture combination. Outside of the range for which analogue amplification is optimal Canon offer the Expanded ISO options. The H1 setting, along with the intermediate 1/3, 2/3 stop ISO values are produced by in camera digital manipulation of the sensor data. Since these ISO values are generated by digital manipulation if you are shooting RAW you actually have two options for applying the digital gain. You can let the camera do it for you, by using the expanded ISO value. The camera applies the digital ISO boost to the sensor data before writing the RAW file. The other option is to apply the boost afterwards in the RAW converter.

Many people, especially those who support ETTR as a concept will prefer to use the RAW processor to do the digital ISO boost in post. The main reason being control. In the RAW processor it is possible to have very fine control over how any digital brightness boost is applied. You are not stuck with just doubling the linear values as you are with in camera expanded ISO. The final results from applying a digital boost in post should never be worse than in camera expanded ISO, but can often be better.

The expanded ISO values do have a use, but only if you are shooting in camera JPEGs. If I had to shoot direct to JPEG would be the only time I would use expanded ISO values.

Once you reach the max ISO value and you are stuck for a wider aperture, or slower shutter speed any more brightening of the image will have to be done in post, where shooting in RAW will have a big advantage, and using the expanded ISO values makes no real advantage when using a modern RAW converter.

Alan

A new camera can help, here is what I am pulling for ISO 12800. I am only shooting JPG and cleaning up the JPG. With the 7D, I had to process all raws to get the most out of them, but the 7D2 is a joy to use. I have eliminated about 90% of going to the raw files now. (I still shoot raw + jpg just in case). You still have to learn how to post process though.

Here is a recent pic from a game at one of our elementary gyms just to bring this a bit closer to your conditions.

JeffreyG wrote in post #17869944
IS is like having a tripod. It helps eliminate blur from your unsteadiness while shooting with slow shutter speeds. If you shoot basketball and nothing else, there isn't much point to having IS since you will never be shooting at very slow shutter speeds.

I personally like 1/800 for high school level basketball, but I'll use 1/640 if I have to. You might be able to get away with 1/500 for the younger kids shown here. The 1/250 that your friend with the Nikon used is too slow, and the 1/400 that you are trying to use is too slow as well. You will be getting some softness with those slow speeds. Look at your friend's shot with the Nikon. The hands are blurred and the face is soft. That is all motion blur because his shutter speed is way too slow.

Manual settings for basketball are not really all that big of a deal. Once you are in a gym, there will only be one exposure setting. And when you shoot around in a bunch of gyms using manual, you will start to realize that they are all pretty much the same for light.

My suggestion is to walk into a gym and set the camera to 1/640, f/2.8 and ISO 6400. Take a picture of a kid in a white jersey and take a look at the image and histogram. Get that white to be good and bright, pushing the right side of histogram. If it is too dark, drop down to 1/500. If that doesn't get it, then go higher with ISO (provided your body will do it). If too bright, move up to 1/800.

Only once you are shooting with correct exposure would I think about changing camera. If you are exposing correctly and still don't like the results then there are better cameras out there (like the 5D3). But right now you are not getting the best results you can get from the Rebel.

Here is why you may end up wanting to upgrade equipment. I suggested 1/640, f/2.8 and ISO 6400 as a starting point. But my guess is that you will find this to be marginal a lot of the time. That does represent the bright end of the spectrum for what I encounter in gyms. I'm shooting 1/640, f/2.8 and ISO 12800 a lot more often, and it's a rare day I find myself at ISO 6400 with an f/2.8 zoom.

Hit my flickr link below and you can see basketball, volleyball, diving, gymnastics etc. You can see the kinds of shutter speeds I use, and they are never slower than 1/500.

Motion blur is good better than looking like a statue if u look at teamspeed last snap I would of liked to see a slower shutter speed so there would be a lot more motion blur in the ball and hands

see, those are amazing pictures and look nothing like mine. I don't think I can get acceptable results with the extended 12800 on the T3i, although I will try. at 6400 though, once I go above 1/400 it's over and very underxposed. I guess the light in these gyms is just not good enough although I thought a better camera would help with those situations allowing 12800 not expandable...

Teamspeed, how do I get pictures like that??? I know everyone here is telling me my settings are wrong however I don't understand what is left with the settings...
I'm at max ISO of the camera 6400, 2.8 fixed, and shutter speeds of 1/400. I realize the 1/400 needs to be much higher but then it's an unusable photo that is basically black.

ok here are 2 in sequence, shot at 12800, one after LR and one the way it was shot. this is what happens at 12800? LOL.. This is a poorly lit gym, very poorly, however would these look like the pics above if there was more light? both at 1/800.