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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 01 Feb 2016 (Monday) 01:01
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Official specs: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

 
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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 27, 2016 09:52 |  #1291

wallstreetoneil wrote in post #17950497 (external link)
this is interesting - both better and worse

http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/14211​37 (external link)

Wow...awesome DR at ISO 100 - best ever for a Canon sensor.

Need to ask a really stupid question here: does DR correlate directly to noise? Does that graph suggest that the 1DX II actually takes a step backward in noise over the 1DX at higher ISO levels?


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sploo
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Mar 27, 2016 10:45 |  #1292

David Arbogast wrote in post #17950539 (external link)
Need to ask a really stupid question here: does DR correlate directly to noise? Does that graph suggest that the 1DX II actually takes a step backward in noise over the 1DX at higher ISO levels?

That is essentially the definition of DR (signal to noise ratio). However, the character of the noise matters. As far as I understand, most Canon's to date have had less "qualitative" DR than the measured quantitive value, because the pattern noise is so objectionable. Nicely random noise (even at a reasonable quantity) is less unpleasant, and probably easier to filter in post.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 27, 2016 10:56 |  #1293

sploo wrote in post #17950593 (external link)
That is essentially the definition of DR (signal to noise ratio). However, the character of the noise matters. As far as I understand, most Canon's to date have had less "qualitative" DR than the measured quantitive value, because the pattern noise is so objectionable. Nicely random noise (even at a reasonable quantity) is less unpleasant, and probably easier to filter in post.

OK, I've always just thought of DR in merely in terms of how much shadow/highlight recovery is possible and didn't make the necessary linkage to noise. Thanks!


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Keema
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Mar 27, 2016 11:05 |  #1294

How many stops is it from ISO 25600 to 64000, 2 or 3 stops?

I am asking because I just saw a 64000 picture from D5 and it was also usable the same as it is usable for this 1DX II for 25600 (i think the highest usable from what others was saying here in this thread).

I just think that this flagship cameras , should be competing on the usable highest ISO combined with a very good AF system because these bodies is for wildlife and sports.

Anyway, I am just wondering and that is all I can do :lol: because I may not be able to buy these cameras. :)




  
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Mar 27, 2016 11:09 |  #1295

Keema wrote in post #17950612 (external link)
How many stops is it from ISO 25600 to 64000, 2 or 3 stops?

Approximately 1 and 1/3 stops.


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sploo
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Mar 27, 2016 11:19 |  #1296

David Arbogast wrote in post #17950602 (external link)
OK, I've always just thought of DR in merely in terms of how much shadow/highlight recovery is possible and didn't make the necessary linkage to noise. Thanks!

Remember: there's no such thing as highlight recovery - if you place a highlight at 101% of the well capacity then it's clipped. DR is the ratio between the largest and smallest signal you can record, before that small signal is drowned out by noise. Thus better DR means more chance of getting useful detail from shadows before they disappear into noise.

Highlight recovery appears to exist because there's usually more headroom in a raw than what's apparent on the camera's histogram. With a raw histogram the camera wouldn't be misleading the shooter - 100% really would be 100%.


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Mar 27, 2016 11:31 as a reply to  @ sploo's post |  #1297

And i wish we had a true raw histogram. "Estimating" is sometimes difficult.


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sploo
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Mar 27, 2016 11:52 |  #1298

jcothron wrote in post #17950643 (external link)
And i wish we had a true raw histogram. "Estimating" is sometimes difficult.

Yea. You tend to develop a gut feel for how much apparent clipping (flashing highlights) is actually safe (on your body), but it isn't ideal. With the 80D and 1DxII being slightly more ISO invariant it's less critical to push your luck (ETTR) as there's less penalty for pushing a bit in post; for lower DR scenes anyway - when there's plenty of scene DR you still want to maximise what the camera can capture.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 27, 2016 12:34 |  #1299

David Arbogast wrote in post #17950539 (external link)
Wow...awesome DR at ISO 100 - best ever for a Canon sensor.

Need to ask a really stupid question here: does DR correlate directly to noise? Does that graph suggest that the 1DX II actually takes a step backward in noise over the 1DX at higher ISO levels?

If he did not normalize for input signal, then the 1Dx and 1DxII could be like two trends in DxOMark where the data points are at different measured ISOs for the two cameras. IOW, the trend could be higher at high ISOs for the 1DxII if normalized in that manner. I would suspect that the noise character of the newer model is better, though, making it possibly neater at high ISOs.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 27, 2016 12:39 |  #1300

David Arbogast wrote in post #17950602 (external link)
OK, I've always just thought of DR in merely in terms of how much shadow/highlight recovery is possible and didn't make the necessary linkage to noise. Thanks!

The top of DR is clearly limited by highlight clipping of the RAW. The bottom of DR is an abstraction, really; just a signal point where the read noise as a standard deviation has the same "quantity", but they are not units of the same thing, and are apples and oranges, really, but that's the standard used. The is nothing special that happens at this signal level, and the character of the noise and the size of the details needed in the shadows really determines the practical DR.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 27, 2016 14:11 |  #1301

sploo wrote in post #17950629 (external link)
Remember: there's no such thing as highlight recovery - if you place a highlight at 101% of the well capacity then it's clipped. DR is the ratio between the largest and smallest signal you can record, before that small signal is drowned out by noise. Thus better DR means more chance of getting useful detail from shadows before they disappear into noise.

Highlight recovery appears to exist because there's usually more headroom in a raw than what's apparent on the camera's histogram. With a raw histogram the camera wouldn't be misleading the shooter - 100% really would be 100%.

With JPEGs of "normal" contrast setting, and extreme white-balances like those for incandescent, there can be 3 stops of blue in the RAW, clipped in the JPEG.




  
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Post edited over 3 years ago by thenextguy.
     
Mar 27, 2016 15:05 |  #1302

Wouldn't it be something if Canon finally took care of low ISO DR and then they got criticized for worse high ISO? :-D


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sploo
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Mar 27, 2016 16:50 |  #1303

John Sheehy wrote in post #17950815 (external link)
With JPEGs of "normal" contrast setting, and extreme white-balances like those for incandescent, there can be 3 stops of blue in the RAW, clipped in the JPEG.

I was aware that the histogram is based on the JPEG data; thus with an extreme(ly contrasty) picture profile you could really be fooling yourself. I wasn't aware that under a normal/sensible circumstance you could get that level of misleading data though.

Seems bizarre that a RAW histogram isn't offered as standard. In fact, it would also be useful to have it indicate not just clipped areas, but areas that would fall below some accepted definition of a minimum signal to noise ratio.

Even better, it should surely be possible to code up an auto-bracket option; that would take a series of shots, whereby the darkest exposure held for some detail in your brightest highlight, then the remaining exposures ensured you got something down to a configured number of darker stops. Lots of "ifs" and "buts" there granted, but there would be some practical solution with a bit of thought.


thenextguy wrote in post #17950878 (external link)
Wouldn't it be something if Canon finally took care of low ISO DR and then they got criticized for worse high ISO? :-D

Well, we've got to have something to whinge about haven't we? :mrgreen:


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Mar 28, 2016 07:47 |  #1304

i hang up my camera the very day i start worrying about .1 stop of DR.


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Post edited over 3 years ago by wallstreetoneil.
     
Mar 29, 2016 09:35 |  #1305

Stolen from a FM post

- very interesting data
- and very interesting choice by each of Canon and Nikon with this next generation where to push and where to give up
- this will help sales to some potential buyers but may stop sales from others

1Dx II vs Nikon D5

IMAGE: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1575/25512127133_bf3fc810c1_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/ESqj​yV  (external link) Screenshot 2016-03-29 10.25.40 (external link) by Paul O'Neil (external link), on Flickr

1Dx vs Nikon D5
IMAGE: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1543/25841893780_a8082ace85_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Fnys​GL  (external link) Screenshot 2016-03-29 10.26.01 (external link) by Paul O'Neil (external link), on Flickr

Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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Official specs: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II
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