New Body for Hockey (very high ISO)

I've decided it is time to update my "hockey body." Presently, I use a 70D. I purchased it after I first started shooting hockey in 2013.

For the most part, the 70D continues to serve me well for this purpose. The 70D is only ever used for hockey. I use my 6D for everything else. I could use the 6D for hockey, but I don't want to. I want a "faster" body for hockey.

What is starting to drive me absolutely insane is constantly having to shoot a 2.8. I want greater depth of field. Most of the time I'm shooting at 1/640 sec; f/2.8; ISO 3200. Sometimes I'll drop down to 1/500 sec in really poorly lit arenas.

I honestly feel like I can't do another season at 2.8. I spend too much time culling images. I want to see the subject's face in sharp focus. I cull a good 50% of my hockey images for missed focus. I really want to try to hit f/5+.

I can't do that by decreasing shutter speed. ISO 3200 is as high as I want to go on my 70D. I find it is just too noisy for my taste above that. I'll go 6400 on my 6D without blinking an eye, but after using the 70D for hockey the 6D is just too slow for me. I'm sure I could adapt to using the 6D, but I don't want to . . . Spoiled? Impatient? Demanding? Maybe.

I'm waiting to see what the 5D III replacement is going to give for very high ISO (and maybe replace my 6D and 70D with it). I do not want to go to the 1DX line. My hockey photography is a volunteer position with the local hockey association. I don't want to spend that kind of money for a body when I'm not getting paid for the photos. I don't want very high ISO for anything but hockey at this point.

The 7D II might be a good option for me. I know TeamSpeed is getting very good results with the 7D II at high very ISO (12800) for indoor basketball. I don't know if it is TeamSpeed's processing skills or the body at this point.

Is anyone else getting excellent, repeatable, results with the 7D II at 12800 for fast, indoor, sports? If so, would you be willing to post some sample images without post processing noise reduction? An even bigger favour . . . would someone be willing to put a 7D II ISO 12800 RAW file on Dropbox for me to download and play with (ONLY to play with noise and noise reduction in Lightroom)?

I haven't shot with either 70D or 7d2. Keep that in mind.

Everything I've read indicates that the 7d2 might be 1/3 of a stop better than the 70D. Someone who has shot both may correct me here. But that would get you from shooting at 2.8 to 3.2. Not much gain there. Teamspeed is very good at post processing to get the most out of high ISOs- I know I learned a lot from his tutorials about how to milk my 7d for the best it could muster- and now I shoot it at ISO 6400 without hesitation. I'd suggest trying to learn how to maximize your 70D before getting a new body for high ISO shooting. You'll get way more of an improvement out of it, and it won't cost you anything.

However, I'm also a bit confused as to why your faces aren't in focus- do you not have a focus point on the face of the player you're shooting? I'd think the 70D would do pretty well tracking focus with a well-placed point. If you don't have a point that you can place well on the subject's face, the 7D2's wider spread of AF point may be your best friend, but that's a different reason to upgrade than Hugh ISO ability.

bseitz234 wrote in post #17913643
However, I'm also a bit confused as to why your faces aren't in focus- do you not have a focus point on the face of the player you're shooting? I'd think the 70D would do pretty well tracking focus with a well-placed point. If you don't have a point that you can place well on the subject's face, the 7D2's wider spread of AF point may be your best friend, but that's a different reason to upgrade than Hugh ISO ability.

I do place the point on the players' faces, but the cages on the helmets can interfere. Sometimes it is the cage that is perfectly in focus and the players' faces are just a bit soft. I cull soft faces. I really have to nail the focus point, and hockey is such a fast sport that sometimes (often) I miss the actual eye or face and hit the cage.

I shoot from beside the bench where there is no glass. I don't have anything to complain about as far as my shooting conditions go. I use a 70-200 2.8 II. The 70D is quite a capable camera. The focus tracking is very good.

My focus has certainly improved over the last three seasons. I improved a huge amount during seasons 1 and 2. I haven't improved as much during season 3. At this point, I don't think there is a whole lot I can physically do that is going to improve things. I think that is where my frustration is coming from . . . I'm getting old and slow and I feel that I've maxed out what I can do without increasing DOF. Looking forward to season 4 (before season 3 has even ended) has me bummed out and discouraged.

I'll see if I can find some of TeamSpeed's tutorials.

I shoot at f3.2-f3.5 at ISO 6400/12800 at 1/1600-1/2000 via JPG (I don't use raw often) with the 7D2 for basketball. I may be shooting hockey tonight yet. The trick is to learn good post production in addition to a body that manages pretty good high ISO. You should be able to shoot at ISO 6400 on the 70D, and with some minor post processing, pull out good quality images.

Here is a "you're out of your mind at 16000 on a cropper" shot. I don't recommend these settings though.

Hockey is the worst period - not only is the lighting bad but the players have helmets that further shields the face from direct light.

The 7D2 is not going to be that much better - but the AF is better.

Hold on to what you have and wait for the 1DX II sensor to drop down into the next 5 and 6 series.

In the meantime live with what you have.

You can jump to Nikon but there is no point now as Canon's new sensors are coming - you should have a choice by next Hockey season

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17913653
Here is a "you're out of your mind at 16000 on a cropper" shot. I don't recommend these settings though.

You're just showing off now!

But, in all seriousness . . . I just saw the link in your signature. Is that action what you're using for the 7D II shots? I'd much rather fork over a small sum than purchase a new camera body if it will help me out. I do use Noiseware.

I have a game that I shot on January 31 that I chose to underexpose at 3200 instead of going up to 6400. Boosting exposure results in images that are just too noisy for my tastes, so I opted to not deliver the images from that game. There are some great shots in there, and I'd like to deliver the images to the association if I can get them to where I'm happy with them.

Note that I can NOT share any of my hockey images outside of the association. My agreement with the association does not permit that. I'll see about changing that next season, as I really do want some outside feedback.

wallstreetoneil wrote in post #17913670
Hockey is the worst period - not only is the lighting bad but the players have helmets that further shields the face from direct light.

The 7D2 is not going to be that much better - but the AF is better.

Hold on to what you have and wait for the 1DX II sensor to drop down into the next 5 and 6 series.

In the meantime live with what you have.

You can jump to Nikon but there is no point now as Canon's new sensors are coming - you should have a choice by next Hockey season

Thank you for the advice.

I'm so invested in Canon at this point, and it is all I've ever used: starting with an AE-1 in the late 1980's. I can't see ever switching to another brand.

I'll see if I can get my post processing improved a bit . . . and then I'll look at what the new offerings are in the fall.

Random thought- can you pretty reliably get the camera to focus on the helmet/cage if you try? I think you said it was about 50% if you're trying for eyes, but I'm wondering if you actually tried to focus on the cage, if you'd get more of them focused there because it's an easier target for the camera to hit (I hadn't considered that interfering with focusing on the eyes). If you can, then you could just dial in a little otherwise-inappropriate MFA to tell the camera to focus a few inches beyond what it thinks it should- and voila, easier target to focus on, and higher hit rate. Might want to try it on a game you don't care about first, in case it doesn't go so well, but I have heard of people doing that before.

I have been adding more and more actions for different bodies to that action set, and that action set works primarily in Photoshop, and requires a Noiseware purchase, or you can deactivate the noiseware runs in an action, then replace with whatever noise program you use. I use a mix of Photoshop filters on each noise channel along with Noiseware runs to remove parts of the noise.

The 7D2 is good enough that I can just shoot JPEG, and yes, I then can run a noise action on it, then a sharpening final step.

Eyes are tough, but also, unless you are right on the glass with hockey or have direct sideline access, even at f2.8, your DOF is more than enough to cover a person's body.

It sounds like more of an AF issue, and this is where the 7D2 will shine over the 70D, more than ISO performance.

neacail wrote in post #17913611
I use my 6D for everything else. I could use the 6D for hockey, but I don't want to. I want a "faster" body for hockey.

Why not try the 6D? And faster in what sense? FPS? Focus? Can't be the ISO.

Here is a big crop from a 7D2 at 4000iso, F2.5, 1/800 (200F2)
- you can always go higher ISO but for me the colours get to a point where I don't like them
- F2.5 @200mm is plenty of DoF
- give it 6 months, new sensors are coming, and get a camera with new AF for hockey

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/EtrF​9b

Color issues, IMO, come more from the poor quality lighting exacerbated by the ice reflections, and not from high ISO. There is no reason to not have good colors at higher ISOs, and where color looks off, set white balance accordingly, then play with curves/saturation.

Thanks, everyone. You've all given me loads to think about.

I was using my 70-200 on my 6D today, and I think I might have some concerns about the lens. It clearly front focussed a few times, when it shouldn't have, on a static subject, using the centre point (the 6D's only cross type point). But, it didn't consistently front focus.

I'm going to try the MFA trick, and I'm also going to rent a 7D II. If my results don't change, I'm going to see about getting a checkup done on my lens.

My 70-200 has shot approximately 75,000 images in three years, so I suppose something could have gone funny with it.

I don't shoot through glass. I shoot from beside the bench, and none of the benches are glassed in: in the arenas I shoot in.

The 6D is "slow" with regards to shutter lag, FPS, and focus with points other than the centre point.

I purchased TeamSpeed's denoiser action, and holy smokes I'm impressed! It is very clever and much more sophisticated than the way I've been doing noise reduction.

I used his 5D III action for 6D images at 12800, and they are totally useable images. I didn't have any samples above 12800 to test.

I picked up a new 5D III for a good price on Thursday, for a couple of reasons (the gents at the camera store I frequent really don't expect to see the 5D IV before Christmas, and camera prices in Canada are about to jump up on April 1st).

With TeamSpeed's clever action and ISO 12800. . . I think I can hit f/5.6, without dropping below 1/640 sec. I'll go to 1/500 sec if I have to, but I really don't like to. I can get some motion blur at 1/500.

I'll be testing the 5DIII at a practice tonight. The practice is in the best lit arena that I shoot in. I've spent two days trying to learn how to focus the thing on moving subjects and playing with settings, so hopefully I'll be pleased with tonight's results.