Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 10 Mar 2016 (Thursday) 00:01
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

Fallacy of inverse-square law

 
RicoTudor
Senior Member
Avatar
677 posts
Likes: 386
Joined Jul 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:01 |  #1

For photography, the inverse-square law is applicable to point sources: a theoretical construct, but close enough for bare bulbs and the sun. For larger light sources, especially double-diffused softboxes and matte reflector panels, you are better served by a slightly more elaborate trigonometric function. Select values can be tabulated for easy reference. The surface must be Lambertian (uniform emission for all angles), which is a lot more realistic than any point-source assumption about a softbox at customary distances. C Code:

#include <math.h>
#include <stdio.h>

/*
* Given an object of height 'h', return ratio of its apparent size as
* subtended to observers at distance 'd1' versus 'd2'.
*/
float
L1_angle_factor( float d1, float d2, float h)
{

return (atan( h/d2) / atan( h/d1));

}

main( )
{

int i;

float H = 1000; // softbox height
float d = 1; // initial distance of subject
/*
* repeatedly double subject distance from softbox
*/
for (i=0; i<20; ++i) {

float r = L1_angle_factor( d, d*2, H);
printf( "H = %.f, d = %06.f, ratio = %f\n", H, d, pow( r, 2));
d *= 2;

}

}

Results from the program:

H = 1000, d = 000001, ratio = 0.998726 (Case 1)
H = 1000, d = 000002, ratio = 0.997452
H = 1000, d = 000004, ratio = 0.994901
H = 1000, d = 000008, ratio = 0.989790
H = 1000, d = 000016, ratio = 0.979537
H = 1000, d = 000032, ratio = 0.958939
H = 1000, d = 000064, ratio = 0.917629
H = 1000, d = 000128, ratio = 0.836448
H = 1000, d = 000256, ratio = 0.691224
H = 1000, d = 000512, ratio = 0.496687
H = 1000, d = 001024, ratio = 0.344812
H = 1000, d = 002048, ratio = 0.277910 (Case 2)
H = 1000, d = 004096, ratio = 0.257324
H = 1000, d = 008192, ratio = 0.251855
H = 1000, d = 016384, ratio = 0.250465
H = 1000, d = 032768, ratio = 0.250116
H = 1000, d = 065536, ratio = 0.250029
H = 1000, d = 131072, ratio = 0.250007
H = 1000, d = 262144, ratio = 0.250002
H = 1000, d = 524288, ratio = 0.250000

In plain English, if subject at 1' from a 1000' softbox steps back to 2' away, then illumination drops to 99.87% (Case 1). So much for inverse-square! The "law" doesn't start to kick in until you are 2m from a 1m source (Case 2).


Canon, Nikon, Contax, Leica, Sony, Profoto.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
8,075 posts
Likes: 2742
Joined Oct 2015
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:04 |  #2
bannedPermanent ban

and the point of this is?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RicoTudor
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
677 posts
Likes: 386
Joined Jul 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:12 as a reply to  @ Bassat's post |  #3

It's in reply to https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=17928013, but also of general interest. Impress people at cocktail parties. :)


Canon, Nikon, Contax, Leica, Sony, Profoto.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
8,075 posts
Likes: 2742
Joined Oct 2015
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:19 |  #4
bannedPermanent ban

Ok, thanks. Though I think it would be more impressive to actually light a photo with a 1000' softbox 1' from the subject.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
46,463 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 4552
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
Post edited over 7 years ago by Wilt. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:35 |  #5

Most folks here don't bother with simple division, which is all that it takes to do Guide Number arithmetic!

Next most difficult is Inverse Square; and an f/stop 1.4x larger admits TWICE as much light :rolleyes:

You want folks to get what you wrote, when they can't cope with the first two?! :eek:


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 541
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
Post edited over 7 years ago by absplastic.
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:41 |  #6

Bassat wrote in post #17930089 (external link)
Ok, thanks. Though I think it would be more impressive to actually light a photo with a 1000' softbox 1' from the subject.

It would be even more impressive to see the demonstration of how the inverse square law applies to the sun in relation to photography. Anyone up for a quick trip to mars?


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
46,463 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 4552
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:47 |  #7

absplastic wrote in post #17930115 (external link)
It would be even more impressive to see the demonstration of how the inverse square law applies to the sun in relation to photography. Anyone up for a quick trip to mars?


Too hard to verify the instantaneous distance between Mars and the Sun, due to the orbital path, so I'll pass on the opportunity.


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 541
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:50 |  #8

Wilt wrote in post #17930122 (external link)
Too hard to verify the instantaneous distance between Mars and the Sun, due to the orbital path, so I'll pass on the opportunity.

So you're volunteering instead to be the one who gathers the data points going towards the sun?


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
8,075 posts
Likes: 2742
Joined Oct 2015
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:54 |  #9
bannedPermanent ban

Wilt wrote in post #17930122 (external link)
Too hard to verify the instantaneous distance between Mars and the Sun, due to the orbital path, so I'll pass on the opportunity.

C'mon Wilt! If you know relative positions, velocity and trajectory, instantaneous distance is a simple calculation. If Copernicus can do it, you can, too! :)




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
46,463 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 4552
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
Post edited over 7 years ago by Wilt.
     
Mar 10, 2016 00:57 |  #10

absplastic wrote in post #17930124 (external link)
So you're volunteering instead to be the one who gathers the data points going towards the sun?

No, the trip takes too long. The minimum distance from the Earth to Mars is about 54.6 million kilometers so getting to Mars (at the right time) involves a much shorter trip (about 1/4 the time). Also the radation from cosmic rays and solar flares would be much less intense going to Mars, compared to going to the Sun, and I am not a tanning bed fanatic.


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JoakimD
Member
52 posts
Likes: 72
Joined Sep 2015
     
Mar 10, 2016 01:05 |  #11

You want me to take a picture of you? Hold on, let me just run my inverse square-law program to make sure the falloff is mathematically correct ;)


https://instagram.com/​joakim_drake/ (external link)
http://www.joakimdrake​.se/ (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Benitoite
Goldmember
Avatar
4,792 posts
Gallery: 438 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 2164
Joined Jan 2015
Location: Morgan Hill, CA
     
Mar 10, 2016 01:07 |  #12

Even wikipedia says if the light source is smaller than a fifth of the distance, the inverse square law holds to 1% error.

RicoTudor wrote in post #17930076 (external link)
For photography, the inverse-square law is applicable to point sources: a theoretical construct, but close enough for bare bulbs and the sun. For larger light sources, especially double-diffused softboxes and matte reflector panels, you are better served by a slightly more elaborate trigonometric function. Select values can be tabulated for easy reference. The surface must be Lambertian (uniform emission for all angles), which is a lot more realistic than any point-source assumption about a softbox at customary distances. C Code:

#include <math.h>
#include <stdio.h>

/*
* Given an object of height 'h', return ratio of its apparent size as
* subtended to observers at distance 'd1' versus 'd2'.
*/
float
L1_angle_factor( float d1, float d2, float h)
{

return (atan( h/d2) / atan( h/d1));

}

main( )
{

int i;

float H = 1000; // softbox height
float d = 1; // initial distance of subject
/*
* repeatedly double subject distance from softbox
*/
for (i=0; i<20; ++i) {

float r = L1_angle_factor( d, d*2, H);
printf( "H = %.f, d = %06.f, ratio = %f\n", H, d, pow( r, 2));
d *= 2;

}

}

Results from the program:

H = 1000, d = 000001, ratio = 0.998726 (Case 1)
H = 1000, d = 000002, ratio = 0.997452
H = 1000, d = 000004, ratio = 0.994901
H = 1000, d = 000008, ratio = 0.989790
H = 1000, d = 000016, ratio = 0.979537
H = 1000, d = 000032, ratio = 0.958939
H = 1000, d = 000064, ratio = 0.917629
H = 1000, d = 000128, ratio = 0.836448
H = 1000, d = 000256, ratio = 0.691224
H = 1000, d = 000512, ratio = 0.496687
H = 1000, d = 001024, ratio = 0.344812
H = 1000, d = 002048, ratio = 0.277910 (Case 2)
H = 1000, d = 004096, ratio = 0.257324
H = 1000, d = 008192, ratio = 0.251855
H = 1000, d = 016384, ratio = 0.250465
H = 1000, d = 032768, ratio = 0.250116
H = 1000, d = 065536, ratio = 0.250029
H = 1000, d = 131072, ratio = 0.250007
H = 1000, d = 262144, ratio = 0.250002
H = 1000, d = 524288, ratio = 0.250000

In plain English, if subject at 1' from a 1000' softbox steps back to 2' away, then illumination drops to 99.87% (Case 1). So much for inverse-square! The "law" doesn't start to kick in until you are 2m from a 1m source (Case 2).




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
8,075 posts
Likes: 2742
Joined Oct 2015
     
Mar 10, 2016 01:08 as a reply to  @ JoakimD's post |  #13
bannedPermanent ban

Oh, Jeez. Have you never done a manual flash calculation in your head. Inverse square law may be complicated in theory. In practice it is 3rd grade arithmetic.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RicoTudor
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
677 posts
Likes: 386
Joined Jul 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
     
Mar 10, 2016 01:25 |  #14

Benitoite wrote in post #17930145 (external link)
Even wikipedia says if the light source is smaller than a fifth of the distance, the inverse square law holds to 1% error.

By my calculation it's about a seventh but, either way, softboxes are commonly used at a far closer distance: 1x the diagonal for a nice wraparound effect. Personally, I prefer the hard stuff.


Canon, Nikon, Contax, Leica, Sony, Profoto.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 541
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Mar 10, 2016 02:04 |  #15

Bassat wrote in post #17930146 (external link)
Oh, Jeez. Have you never done a manual flash calculation in your head. Inverse square law may be complicated in theory. In practice it is 3rd grade arithmetic.

If you think you can do it in your head, tell me then if you meter f/8 at a distance of 2 meters from a bare bulb light source, what aperture reading should you get if you if you move the lightmeter to 5 meters from the bulb? Or, alternately, how many stops do you have to increase the light to keep the meter reading f/8?

Most adults I know couldn't even do the logarithms with a calculator, let alone in their heads. I doubt many 3rd graders can.


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

5,146 views & 6 likes for this thread, 15 members have posted to it and it is followed by 7 members.
Fallacy of inverse-square law
FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is semonsters
923 guests, 117 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.