580 EX ii firing in master mode with light output set to off

I just finished reading everything I could find in the search function, and double checked my manual again without finding an answer to this problem.

My master and slave are both set to their proper roles. The master's light output is set to off (so no lines are coming out the front of the flash on the lcd), but the master is still firing when shutter is open.

If I hadn't been just using these same 2 flashes yesterday in this same way with success, I would think it's just how the system works. I read some comments saying "it needs to flash an insignificant amount of light to trigger the slave(s)" "it's just the prefire you're seeing", and if I hadn't been using these flashes yesterday this way with zero problems I'd be none the wiser, and think the system wasn't all it was cracked up to be. But I was getting great results in the same room/setup for some test shots. The flashes were even still set the same way today when I turned them back on, and was about to start shooting again.

Of course after having problems I reset everything several times, checked batteries, etc...

I have no idea if anyone has ever heard of these acting "buggy" in this way since the last time this was asked, but I'm stumped.

I'm shooting on a 5d mkii, and have looked through the speedlite controls on that as well. I've even tried changing some things back and forth via camera menu to see if that triggers something back to normal.

Next place I ask is Canon, but I wanted to ask here first.

jwtruth45 wrote in post #17937873
I just finished reading everything I could find in the search function, and double checked my manual again without finding an answer to this problem.

My master and slave are both set to their proper roles. The master's light output is set to off (so no lines are coming out the front of the flash on the lcd), but the master is still firing when shutter is open.

If I hadn't been just using these same 2 flashes yesterday in this same way with success, I would think it's just how the system works. I read some comments saying "it needs to flash an insignificant amount of light to trigger the slave(s)" "it's just the prefire you're seeing", and if I hadn't been using these flashes yesterday this way with zero problems I'd be none the wiser, and think the system wasn't all it was cracked up to be. But I was getting great results in the same room/setup for some test shots. The flashes were even still set the same way today when I turned them back on, and was about to start shooting again.

Of course after having problems I reset everything several times, checked batteries, etc...

I have no idea if anyone has ever heard of these acting "buggy" in this way since the last time this was asked, but I'm stumped.

I'm shooting on a 5d mkii, and have looked through the speedlite controls on that as well. I've even tried changing some things back and forth via camera menu to see if that triggers something back to normal.

Next place I ask is Canon, but I wanted to ask here first.

Hi and welcome to POTN!

Is the master flash seated fully in the hot shoe of the camera? Does it say ETTL on it? Did you apply the settings on the flash or in the camera?

Thanks for the welcome!

I just double checked the seating (even though it was clicked in before so thought that meant it was definitely in there), and the flashes are set to ETTL. I did play around with other settings (Manual etc.) AFTER problems started, but it was already switched back.

I did originally set up everything using the buttons and lcd on the flashes, even though I played with flash settings in the camera menu, again only after problems had already started.

It is designed to do that! After the shutter is open, the flash emits low-power light pulses to send E-TTL settings to the flash if in that mode, and then the sync signal.

One poster here showed cave photography where this showed up. It is also the reason why Canon does not provide 2nd-curtain sync for off-camera.

Why do you suspect that the master is operating when the shutter is open?

Do you think it is affecting the images exposure? Possibly easiest way to check is to aim the master at a mirror in front of the camera, with the slaves behind or pointing the other way, take an exposure and see if the masters flash appears in the image.

It is supposed to flash but prior to the shutter opening. Refer to the last sentence on page 39 of the manual\

EDIT Just did some testing as described above and Clive is correct but the output is very small & wouldn't have any effect on an image exposed with just the slaves.

Mark Vuleta wrote in post #17937961
Why do you suspect that the master is operating when the shutter is open?

Do you think it is affecting the images exposure? Possibly easiest way to check is to aim the master at a mirror in front of the camera, with the slaves behind or pointing the other way, take an exposure and see if the masters flash appears in the image.

It is supposed to flash but prior to the shutter opening. Refer to the last sentence on page 39 of the manual

It's absolutely affecting exposure. Yesterday the exact same setup was giving me lighting from about 75 degrees to the left of subject from the slave, with no noticeable light from the master, and exactly the lighting effect I was hoping for.

Today using the same setup and location (I still have the slave and tripod for camera setup from last night) I'm getting unusable images because of the master. Images are completely blown out so you can't even tell what it is I'm photographing. Frame is almost completely white, and you can tell it's coming directly from the front.

Yes I saw the note at the bottom of the page about the necessary pre flash from the Master. I checked everything in the manual about this before my original post.

I've also been digging around on Google, and this same question does pop up here and there with people saying they're doing things the way the manual says, but still having this problem...

I did just do the mirror test as well, and it's identical in brightness of flash (as far as I can detect) to one where I have switched the flash off Master mode, and set it to regular, single flash duty.

If I saw someone else post this question yesterday I would have thought they were crazy, and told them they need to set it up properly.

However today I'm the crazy person, or just moved zip codes to the twilight zone I guess.

Wish I had a time machine to go back to last night and get all the images I planned on taking...

Well, there is something wrong then. Do you have a camera that is capable of adjusting the flash setting via the camera menu? If so, double check in there that it is on ETTL not TTL (from memory, it will give normal flash if in TTL).

Could you post a unedited file of one of the bad shots to a hosting site with the full exif data included?

I'm using a 5d mkii for this, so yes it has in camera settings for the flash. Flash mode is, and was already set to E-TTL II which is the only one on the list with ETTL in it.

I already took down the setup I had because I was starting to unconsciously ball my hands into fists, which I know means leave things I can't afford to replace alone from experience and previous heartache.

I can take a picture of something on my desk, or whatever though.

I never posted anything to a hosting site...so I need to look for a hosting site on Google, and then I assume just post a raw to there which should have the exif data, and post a link to it here? Sorry for the Noob talk, but I've never needed to do that before, so I need to make sure I do it right.

Fair enough, better to walk away & try with fresh eyes latter.

Try a host like Drop Box. I'm fairly sure that you can have a free trial for a while or one of the Google storage options.

This one doesn't look as crazy bad as the other shots did. I made me doubt myself a little bit. It's still much brighter than when I turned the master head completely backward and only had light from the slave hitting it. That, and when I did the mirror test earlier, and the flash looked every bit as bright as a test shot using the flash like a single unit. Anyway, if you're still up and around here's the link to the image. If not, maybe I'll see tomorrow what you thought. I appreciate all the help, and hope I'm not just going crazy with this.

https://www.dropbox.co​m …96dc7th/IMG_663​6.CR2?dl=0

Also if I did that wrong just bear with me, and let me know.

Mark Vuleta wrote in post #17937961
Just did some testing as described above and Clive is correct but the output is very small & wouldn't have any effect on an image exposed with just the slaves.

It is very small, but can affect the image, usually when ambient is very low and camera has a slow shutter.

jwtruth45 wrote in post #17938094
This one doesn't look as crazy bad as the other shots did. I made me doubt myself a little bit. It's still much brighter than when I turned the master head completely backward and only had light from the slave hitting it. That, and when I did the mirror test earlier, and the flash looked every bit as bright as a test shot using the flash like a single unit. Anyway, if you're still up and around here's the link to the image. If not, maybe I'll see tomorrow what you thought. I appreciate all the help, and hope I'm not just going crazy with this.

https://www.dropbox.co​m …96dc7th/IMG_663​6.CR2?dl=0

Also if I did that wrong just bear with me, and let me know.

Hi, That's very over-exposed - see the Histo ..

As Clive says, the system is supposed to work like that. Think of the master output divided into 'pre-flashes', 'trigger flash' and intended 'capture flash'. The first is strictly with the shutter closed, the trigger flash & capture flash occur while the shutter is open.

With a 5xxEx master, there are two ways to completely remove trigger-flash from the captured image. The first is to enact & use HSS (but it kills c 2.5 stops of power) (in HSS, the trigger signal has to be given just before the first curtain starts to move) - the second is to use an IR pass filter over the fresnel of the master unit. Nikon's SG-3IR can be used but it needs modifiation before using from a Canon body hot-shoe.

(@ Clive: Hi, I thought the trigger flash was only that - and - any power fraction instruction sending was completed as the last of the pre-flash components. But I'd like your knowledge on that. Tx!)

I've heard that some 580EX II units have a problem with the connection between the flash and camera due to the "improved" weather sealing in the shoe. This causes intermittent switching between a) real E-TTL and b) erratic behavior, including full-power flash dumping. You can quickly check whether the flash is firing at full power (and therefore whether this might be the issue) by the recycle time. Check to make sure that the flash displays "ETTL" in the top left corner, rather than "TTL." Physically press down on the unit to ensure a tight connection with the camera.

I'm not certain this is the cause of your problem, because a full-power dump from a 580II at the settings you were using would probably blow out the image much more. Wouldn't hurt to check, though.

When using high ISO's, with the flash head of the Master flash pointed forward and with the flash close to your subject, your preflash will contribute to the exposure even with the Master flash output turned "OFF". You need to turn your flash head around backwards and problem solved. The best thing to do is go radio wireless. The Godox X1 system is the best and works great with the 580EX II flashes.