Gandini has had enough!

OK, I'm putting on my curmudgeon hat, so be warned. But as one of the first people to join this forum, and having participated in it quite actively (over 150 postings, not all of which were a waste of bandwidth I hope,) I just can't sit by and watch this forum become a mini-clone of CanonTalk or Canon SLR Talk on dpreview, or (god forbid) rec. photo.digital.
If Pekka published statistics by board on this forum, you'd see the posts to the D-30 board going up like Mt Everest, and all the others holding pretty constant, with the G1 forum languishing in the shadow of the G2. So, all you guys are buying D-30s and taking great photos.

But hang on, what are the posts all about? Oh, yeah--where should I buy my camera, which lens should I get, should I buy a 550EX with that? Without a FAQ, these questions keep getting asked, and the same people keep giving the same answers. I see people with under 5 posts asking these questions--why not do a search (the forum has a search feature, look up at the top of the window)? I *bet* you'll find the question has been answered already--many times.

I've got my flame suit on, so don't even bother! I know there'll be lots of people on this forum wishing bad things to happen to me because I expressed what I feel. I even know I'm posting to the *wrong* board, it's just that the D-30 board is the ONLY one people read, and post to these days, so to get any attention I feel that I have to post here.

I LOVE this forum. I've logged in to it every day since it started (even Pekka is on record saying he doesn't check forums or newgroups daily--I think he feels it's a sign of a sad, lonely life, and maybe he's right.) And if it gets successfully taken over by those who want to know where to buy a D-30 or G2 cheap, then so be it. But let me just remind you, those of you who remember back 6 months, of the times when you used to see MORE postings to the Share Photo and Critique Corner boards than any of the camera boards.

I LOVE this forum. Pekka provides us with a chance to hang in a "small intimate group" of people much like ourselves, kindred spirits. Maybe it was the magic 1000 mark that made the difference. I *don't* want to go backwards, that's impossible. But why not save this ship from sinking, sinking into the mire that CanonTalk sloughs in? And it's simple--don't keep replying to posts that could easily be answered by searching the archives and previous posts.

My last comment, for now: Next time you want to reply to a post asking about a lens for the D-30, go look at a recent (if there *are* any) posting to the Share Photo board and look at an image, and post a comment on it!

I have met *so many* wonderful people here, please know that these comments come as a cry, as a plea.

thank you,
philip

I've been reading this board every day for months and now it is time to delurk and register.

Philip, while I agree with just about everything you say, it is the nature of the internet beast to be lazy and want instant gratification. Rather than do your own research, it is easier to post a new topic to pose a question.

I moderate a science fiction posting board on the web and it's the same thing. Every other day someone creates a new topic about an old question. I come from the days of BBSing (1989, 2400 baud modems) and I ran several BBSes with message boards. Same thing.

And FAQs don't work. Most people don't read them.

Now, before I bought my D30, I did tons of research and read all these sites and boards. I never did post a newbie kinda question about which camera or lens to buy. But obviously, I am able to look at things from the other side of the fence.

-- Nick
My crappy D30 pictures (the pics not the D30): http://www.deaddogpart​y.com/d30.html

Philip,

I understand your frustration (you're right!), but I personally try to cope with lot of repeating data and issues because I can't _force_ people who come here to search it all. Same thing happens on dpreview...
I _could_ give you moderator rights and you could delete and move messages but I have personally not used those rights to much else than moving messages to relevant boards and correcting spellling errors () because if you start messing with the board heavily it all comes very illogical and will drive people away in the end.

I'm very happy that the level of expertise and quality of discussion here has been very high. In my next forum software I'd hope to have a system which would make gathering all the best posts to one "all stars"-reply-board which could be had there as a permanent source of great info.

FAQ's would be nice but this is not exact science and e.g. each lens choice has to be done on NEED and not just but what's the best. Discussion is what works very well.

And FAQ's don't get read: you would not believe the amount of mail I've got about "what's you G1 workflow" and "what tripod do you use" AFTER I put the FAQ on G1 pages

Thanks for writing.

PS. I'll send you the Db files you requested after I play a concert in Estonia tomorrow.

Nick:
***so YOU"RE the guy who took that amazing photo of the plane "breaking through" the haze ball?!! Damn, I remember when that came out on rec.photo.digital, and it was even sent to me dozens of times as forwarded email. What a controversy, and there you were, all the time, lurking with a D30, hanging with us guys!!

I'm impressed! I perused your gallery. Very nice--quality images taken by someone who obviously enjoys photography. thanks for sharing with us. Why not post some of your favorites on the "Share Photos" board?

cheers (and hats off for that amazing jet photo!)

Philip,

I decided at first that I wasn't going to reply, but changed my mind because I wanted to make several points:

I totally agree with you that this is a great forum. One of the reasons for that, I think, is that "answer posters" have taken a very tolerant attitude to questions that are simple, repeated, or newbie. There have been several posts recently from "lurkers" who have said that they have been encouraged to ask a question because of this "forum culture", because they feel comfortable.

I've been around PC's for a looong time, but there are lots of people who are new to the Internet and haven't learned how to use the technology efficiently yet. It's up to the "oldtimers" to offer appropriate help and advice on how to get better.

Your comments about gallery postings and critiques raise some interesting issues. I think there are, at least, two concerns that I have (and, therefore, I guess many others share). I have been using digital photography for less than a year before that I was really only an "occasional" photographer. I have recently created a web site and built some galleries with a few of my images, but I was very diffident about posting any images for a long time. On the other hand, I've perused galleries and pictures that others have posted. How many times is it worth posting "nice pictures"? And most of the time a rigorous critique (even if I were competent to give one) is inappropriate. I remember an image of yours - the girl in the white t-shirt. If I recall correctly, this was a serendipitous photo op that you grabbed and got a nice, evocative image. It's hardly sensible to complain about focus and depth of field. So "nice shot, you lucky s*d!"

On the other hand, I don't want to post "I don't like these pictures". Much of what gets posted is not very well done, boring or badly presented. Negative feedback is never pleasant, but I think it's very hard to be constructive or not be misinterpreted in this medium. One of the reasons we use emoticons is because it's difficult to tell when someone is joking - somehow the sarcastic, teasing tone of voice gets lost in the typing.

WRT FAQ's, they may be helpful, but they are a lot of work to put together. As a consequence, in my experience, they're very often not helpful as they can be the "easy to answer" questions that nobody needs to ask. And searchs... I've lost count of the number of searchs I've done that have either come up with nothing, or else have produced a long list of posts, most of which are completely irrelevant.

As for questions about lenses... I guess I should feel singed by your post as I've both asked and answered lens questions. I certainly don't feel it's fair to suggest this forum is becoming like those on DP Review. I have substantially reduced my visits to Canon SLR Talk because too many threads are just not worth reading. It's not because they are repetitive, but they have degenerated to "gossip in the bar" - not exactly the right phrase, but the best I could come up with. This forum doesn't suffer from this type of thread.

Finally (I knew there was I reason I shouldn't have responded ), I think my main message is "let's all be a bit tolerant" and after all, you don't have to read those posts "What lenses should I buy for my new D30?".

Regards,

Roger
www.rogercavanagh.com

as someone relatively new to this forum...i just wanted to offer my 1.5 cents worth...

i TOTALLY understand about search the archives (when i was just lurking and considering purchasing a D-30 that is EXACTLY what i did...and by itself...searching and finding the info that you want (along with lots of practical opinons : ) is gratifying also...

but we all want to feel like we're not alone out here...i'm hardly a professional...but just an amateur who enjoys the craft...i believe that one of the wonderful things about this forum IS that everyone answers...i've been on some other sites and posted responses and feel, well...invisible. i think it is the high amount of us newbies here that makes it interesting...so as newbies...we all like to know that there's someone out there...even if it is repetitive...

so in short...i'm not criticizing...i love this forum : )

but i can only coach a little patience...hey...we were ALL new once...

and thanks for mentioning the gallery...i'm sure i saw it originally...but i was so hungry for information and some sort of interaction that i didn't even realize that there was one here (outside of pekka's gallery) see? i didn't dig deep enough! oooops : )

ok.

my 1.5 cents are up...

back to chasing the little one around with my D-30 : )

bob

Phil,

You do good work. I have enjoyed your gallery and your dedication to the art. We even live in the same state by the way, I am in the Four Corners region. I also appreciate your opinion as I used to love Dp Review but don't go there often for just the reasons you stated. There are really a lot of egotistical wierdos on the net who post just to stir the turd, so to speak. I have learned to spot them right away and try to let their posts fizzle for lack of response.

We can do this as well. Pekka would agree that Government intervention (in this case the Moderator) in a possible problem simply compounds the problem. We can handle this as a group with a concerted effort to ignore the bums when they show up. A good rule of thumb should be a vested interest in the D30. If you havn't laid down the bucks, stay off the forum!

But, on the other hand, if this poor newbie has laid down the bucks and needs to know how to make the D30 work I will be the first in line to help because one of you has already answered one of MY stupid Newbie questions and it's my turn on the keyboard. You can take the night off!

This needed to be said; now take the night off!

Chris

Philip said:
>>***so YOU"RE the guy who took that amazing photo of the plane "breaking through" the haze ball?!!

Opps, you are wrong,

here is your quote: " A good rule of
thumb should be a vested interest in the D30. If you havn't laid down the bucks, stay off
the forum! ."

I happen to be one of those who has not laid down the bucks yet, although I am going to, very soon. Does that mean that I
have to back off into a corner for now and when I buy I can "join" the gang. this is a lot of money to me and i am not going to
spend it foolishly on something that i do not know enough about, yet. i have been doing commercial photography for over 30 years
and digital for only 2 years, mostly self taught. I have asked a question on this board and received a timely response. (thanks
guys.) My dilemma now is trying to determine which lens would be the best for me and the camera. I am still doing research
and I must add that the search functions of forums leaves a lot to be desired. What you end up with is a lot of posts that have
no relationship to the question you want answered. I really feel that the "old guys" on the forum should be more tolerant of the
new guys. We can all learn from one another. I am sure you all can teach me a lot and i feel that I can teach you something in
return, if given the chance.

Louis,

You are right on and that thought came to mind right after I hit the "post" button but it was too late. My real target with the vested interest statement is the troll who never intends to buy the camera but just wants to entertain him/her self on a forum.

If anybody is seriously considering the D30, and there have been many posting here, they are as much a part of the group as I am and probably need the help more than I do. Actually, I was also kind of trying to make "peace" in my own stumbling, bumbling way and, as is usually the case, should have stayed the heck out of it. Ooops.

Chris

Philip etal,

It is my firm belief that the reason this board is so great is that there are great people who will answer quesitons. While there are some trolls, there are some ogres as well.

I own a G2, and probably will not buy a D30. I have yet to ask a lens question, but have answered one or two... My guess is that some of the "trolls" will at some point become fellow Canon owners. The beauty of a forum like this is it is very easy to simply pass on reading or replying to threads.

My thanks to all those who answered a "stupid" question of mine, and my sincere apologies to those who suffered reading any of my more "stupid" replies.

Many a teacher communicated the thought that the only bad question was one that was not asked. If a question is not appreciated, don't be a teacher. Don't be an ogre either.

As far as trolls, ogres and the monster hiding in my closet, I find that if they are ignoring them is like turning the lights on... they seem to dissapear.


Paul

G2

Thanks Chris,

I appreciate your answer, thanks. I have learned more about my future camera here than anywhere else. I have been to many forums looking for information and its all here "under one roof".

I think Roger states my outlook on all this very well. Tolerance, consideration and kindness are nice attributes. If someone is considering buying a D30 or new to one, what better place to go to ask questions. I hate to ask a stupid question if everyone is just going to tell me it was a stupid question.

I'm 6 weeks into the D30. I was inspired to buy the expensive tool by visiting the Fred Miranda and Pekka sites. The information I received from both of the above and "you" Mr. G were the reason I got up the courage to actually pick up the phone and call in the order.

I knew nothing about Dpreview at that time. I knew nothing about lenses, bags, nothing...but I wanted to produce photos like Pekka did.

I understand your frustration about it becoming another DP...one is enough for sure...the same questions over and over again drive me nutzo also, but every now and then one stupid question is helpful. I think what's bothering you will go away after the holiday season.

You've all been an inspiration to me and I'm getting pretty good now. So thanks for helping a guy who spent over his friggin' head and then didn't know how to use what he bought...I was sweating bullets.

Warmest regards,

Larry Mowry

I know it's kinda boring when you see some of the same questions being asked all the time.

But one great thing about forum is that you get interaction between those who ask and those who reply.

Myself, I try to search as much as I can before I ask a question in a forum. But for others, it's more fun to just post a question and see who will reply.
I do take joy in answering someone's question especially if it provided some value to the person who asked.

I have learn a great deal on this forum. So I welcome any questions posted to this forum. Keep the interaction going.

I do notice a drop in the number of questions raised in this forum. I don't know why...Could it be that the forum was so informative to those to used it before that we don't have any more problems with our D30?

I know personally I don't ask too many question anymore. It's a fact that I have used what I learned here and I am happy with the results I got. But I do try to help out others on their questions.

Cheers,
-Tuan