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FORUMS General Gear Talk Data Storage, Memory Cards & Backup 
Thread started 10 Apr 2016 (Sunday) 05:20
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Durability ? About semi long term storage, and HDD question.

 
Submariner
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Apr 10, 2016 05:20 |  #1

Hi
I bought an HGST 4TB 7,200 rpm 3.5" HDD, to store my pictures long term. See http://www.hgst.com …ves/nas-desktop-drive-kit (external link)


My Workflow is:-
1. Work on files stored on Intel PCIe NVMe 750 400GB SSD (runs Win 10 , DPP4, PSE 13, Office 2010 and the current Photoshop based editing job )
2. When finished editing, I copy to two Samsung EVOs 500 GBs, and leave say 6 or 7 shoots there until finished any additionally requested images.
3. Then copy to the HGST 4TB and also to WD Passport 2TB enclosures, as a sort of double backup, and put these in the Chubb safe.

Q.1 Is it true the data will physically last longer on a HDD?
Q2. As this HDD will only be very infrequently accessed i.e. 4 times a month for say 20 minute sessions, i.e. to copy the latest 8 shoots to; will the drive actually be spinning all the time, if its not even being accessed? i.e. Most of the time this could even be disconnected.
Q3. If it does spin all the time, would that be at a slower speed or always its max 7,200rpm?
Q4. Could I practically turn it off in the BIOS and would that stop it spinning.?

Also is this a good choice, reliability and now noise wise?
Thanks


Canon EOS 5DS R, Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L Mk II IS USM, Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 L IS USM, EF 40mm F2.8 STM , RC6 Remote. Canon STE-3 Radio Flash Controller, Canon 600 EX RT x4 , YN 560 MkII x2 ; Bowens GM500PRO x4 , Bowens Remote Control. Bowens Pulsar TX, RX Radio Transmitter and Reciever Cards. Bowens Constant 530 Streamlights 600w x 4 Sold EOS 5D Mk III, 7D, EF 50mm F1.8, 430 EX Mk II, Bowens GM500Rs x4

  
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MalVeauX
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Post edited over 7 years ago by MalVeauX. (8 edits in all)
     
Apr 10, 2016 06:13 |  #2

Heya,

It's a good drive. But basically most of the major driver makers pushing their consumer NAS level drivers have similar performance & life. Having the best drive in the world is not the answer to a back up. Think of it as just another place to hold things, one of several, and you're going to fare better long term.

I'm not sure there's enough overall data to show if a SSD vs HDD will keep data, unplugged in a safe, for 100 years, and remain functional when repowered after that time period with intact data. I'm kidding obviously (though that data doesn't exist!), but my point is, you probably will not need to worry about this. You will be replacing those HDD's every few years anyways. They are not life-time purchases nor solutions, so don't get one and let it sit hoping it will last longer. You should easily get a few years of constant use out of these drives, SSD or HDD. But don't expect 10+ years.

If the drive is connected to a windows machine and is present in the disk manager, it will be accessed. It will spin down based on power settings in the control panel, but there are tons of windows services that will crawl the drive. You'd have to turn them all off or disable them on that drive to prevent them from spinning it up or accessing it randomly. Even then, I promise you, Windows will still access that drive here and there. That said, I would not worry about this, the NAS drive was made to run 24/7, hot, for a long time. It's not made to just sit in your computer, in low power state, doing nothing, except once every 3 months. You didn't need to get a NAS drive to do that. And if you're worried about redundancy, simply use more physical drives instead of buying a single expensive drive hoping it won't fail (obviously you're not doing that, you have another backup, but you get the idea). If you want the drive to not be accessed, it needs to not be attached to the machine during the off-time. USB3.0 or eSATA is a way to access it when you want to, and keep it cool and asleep and in a safe, when you're not using it. If it's in your system, connected, I would never consider it an actual backup--more a working drive. Plugged in, it will always be subject to catastrophic power failure, fluctuation, physical damage, environmental damage, etc.

The drive will spin at it's maximum speed when it's asked to. Even then, that's just it's average sustained. Don't worry about this. Finding a way to set it to run at 1,000rpm's will not increase it's life span or durability. Enjoy the faster file transfers.

You can turn it off in BIOS, but it depends on what settings you're using for your ATA/Serial bus. You can totally make it "disabled" and then notice it shows up in Window's disk manager, simply without a drive letter attached, but it's powered and I bet you it got accessed a little here and there as it was being quivered and added. There's no real practical reason to disable these drives. Either take them out, or leave them in and use them.

There are all kinds of opinions on backups. I am of the mind that it's all about levels of protection, and the more levels you feel you need, the more separate locations you have to have to achieve it.

About HDD's, you really should be in the habit of changing them out every so often. Same reason the companies do the same thing. They are not forever. They fail. Always. Eventually. They fail. So you simply use them while they're good, and change them before they fail. Your backups are for when they fail before you reach that point, or in case other things happen. As you accumulate photos, your space required increases anyways. Plus, mass storage is stupid cheap. 4TB is like $120 these days for a good drive. Every 2 years or 3 years, you could get another one, with even more storage. That's super inexpensive if you think about it. $5 a month for that storage, if you put it in that perspective of 2 years.

Very best,


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John ­ from ­ PA
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Apr 10, 2016 10:57 |  #3

Do you buy green bananas? :)




  
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eelnoraa
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Post edited over 7 years ago by eelnoraa.
     
Apr 11, 2016 02:17 |  #4

Submariner wrote in post #17966785 (external link)
Hi

Q.1 Is it true the data will physically last longer on a HDD?
Q2. As this HDD will only be very infrequently accessed i.e. 4 times a month for say 20 minute sessions, i.e. to copy the latest 8 shoots to; will the drive actually be spinning all the time, if its not even being accessed? i.e. Most of the time this could even be disconnected.
Q3. If it does spin all the time, would that be at a slower speed or always its max 7,200rpm?
Q4. Could I practically turn it off in the BIOS and would that stop it spinning.?

Also is this a good choice, reliability and now noise wise?
Thanks

A1. Yes, from data retention point of view, nothing beat magnetic. It is still the most reliable medium. Having that said, the mechanical part of the HDD doesn't have the same reliability although it is quite good these days.

A2. It depends on your OS setting. In windows, you can set it to spin down if not access for certain amount of time.

A3. Most HDD spin at one speed, all except WD Green, I think.

A4. Yes, but I think it is in the OS, not BIOS.

I agree with MalVeaux in a sense, it is a good habit to change out HDD or SSD every so often. In enterprise storage, like data server in facebook or Amazon, they change out the drives every period of time based on a function of MTBF. Even if the drive still work, they will swap for new ones.


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eelnoraa
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Apr 11, 2016 02:38 |  #5

MalVeauX wrote in post #17966807 (external link)
Heya,
I'm not sure there's enough overall data to show if a SSD vs HDD will keep data, unplugged in a safe, for 100 years, and remain functional when repowered after that time period with intact data.,

No data like that. All manufactures, magnetic or flash, do data retention test with evaluated temperature to accelerate the data degradation with time.

Not sure how HDD do it, for flash I can tell you a relationship between time and temperature in general: A 10hr bake at 125C is approximately equal to 1 year at 55C. This is a very typical data point for flash because it is what the flash manufactures guarantee at the end of its endurance. It is not to say the flash will fail for sure. It is based on a acceptable probability of failure.

Take the example deeper. Modern TLC flash can only last about 500+/- cycles. Take a 256GB TLC drive, if you can write the entire capacity, 256GB about 500 times, the you let you drive stay in 55C environment. At the end of 1 years, you have a high probability of not getting all you data back. Having that said, most people won't go write that much data through the drive. In a "younger" drive, data retention will be better. Most consumer/client don't let their drive subject to a 55C environment. So data retention should be significantly better. But either way, flash is no comparison to magnetic. I have witness IT in my previous company, pulled out 40 year old backup tape with has been through water damage, recovery all data back.


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tim
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Post edited over 7 years ago by tim.
     
Apr 11, 2016 04:31 |  #6

1. I'm not sure anyone can really answer that question. If anyone gives you an answer ask for their references or evidence. Everything fails, and while you may be able to collect statistics you can't say what will happen with your drive in your environment.
2. Shouldn't be spinning, but that doesn't mean it won't be. Yes you should disconnect it.
3. Read the specs.
4. Unplug it, keep it offsite.

Some points for you to consider:
- Everything fails, usually when you're least prepare. Prepare for the worst case scenario.
- You have so major weaknesses in your data storage strategy. Get your images onto multiple drives in multiple locations immediately after any important shoot.
- If all your data is connected to your computer a virus can wipe it all.
- If all your data is in one location a fire can burn it all. "Fireproof safe" is a marketing term, not a technical one.
- Mirrored data is not a backup. Proper backups are incremental and offsite. That way randomware can't corrupt your data, you can always roll back to a previous version.
- Cloud backups are good, but depending on your data volume may not back up your images as quickly as you would. 2000 RAW images (a small wedding load) is 120GB would take a day or so to back up if you could get a constant 10Mbps upload. That's actually pretty quick. Not all cloud providers can support that upload speed, even if you have a 1Gbps internet connection.

Implement a pessimistic backup scheme with multiple sites, multiple copies of data, incremental where appropriate, to back up data as quickly as possible after creation.


Professional wedding photographer, solution architect and general technical guy with multiple Amazon Web Services certifications.
Read all my FAQs (wedding, printing, lighting, books, etc)

  
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Submariner
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Apr 11, 2016 05:14 |  #7

MalVeauX wrote in post #17966807 (external link)
Heya,

It's a good drive. But basically most of the major driver makers pushing their consumer NAS level drivers have similar performance & life. Having the best drive in the world is not the answer to a back up. Think of it as just another place to hold things, one of several, and you're going to fare better long term.

I'm not sure there's enough overall data to show if a SSD vs HDD will keep data, unplugged in a safe, for 100 years, and remain functional when repowered after that time period with intact data. I'm kidding obviously (though that data doesn't exist!), but my point is, you probably will not need to worry about this. You will be replacing those HDD's every few years anyways. They are not life-time purchases nor solutions, so don't get one and let it sit hoping it will last longer. You should easily get a few years of constant use out of these drives, SSD or HDD. But don't expect 10+ years.

If the drive is connected to a windows machine and is present in the disk manager, it will be accessed. It will spin down based on power settings in the control panel, but there are tons of windows services that will crawl the drive. You'd have to turn them all off or disable them on that drive to prevent them from spinning it up or accessing it randomly. Even then, I promise you, Windows will still access that drive here and there. That said, I would not worry about this, the NAS drive was made to run 24/7, hot, for a long time. It's not made to just sit in your computer, in low power state, doing nothing, except once every 3 months. You didn't need to get a NAS drive to do that. And if you're worried about redundancy, simply use more physical drives instead of buying a single expensive drive hoping it won't fail (obviously you're not doing that, you have another backup, but you get the idea). If you want the drive to not be accessed, it needs to not be attached to the machine during the off-time. USB3.0 or eSATA is a way to access it when you want to, and keep it cool and asleep and in a safe, when you're not using it. If it's in your system, connected, I would never consider it an actual backup--more a working drive. Plugged in, it will always be subject to catastrophic power failure, fluctuation, physical damage, environmental damage, etc.

The drive will spin at it's maximum speed when it's asked to. Even then, that's just it's average sustained. Don't worry about this. Finding a way to set it to run at 1,000rpm's will not increase it's life span or durability. Enjoy the faster file transfers.

You can turn it off in BIOS, but it depends on what settings you're using for your ATA/Serial bus. You can totally make it "disabled" and then notice it shows up in Window's disk manager, simply without a drive letter attached, but it's powered and I bet you it got accessed a little here and there as it was being quivered and added. There's no real practical reason to disable these drives. Either take them out, or leave them in and use them.

There are all kinds of opinions on backups. I am of the mind that it's all about levels of protection, and the more levels you feel you need, the more separate locations you have to have to achieve it.

About HDD's, you really should be in the habit of changing them out every so often. Same reason the companies do the same thing. They are not forever. They fail. Always. Eventually. They fail. So you simply use them while they're good, and change them before they fail. Your backups are for when they fail before you reach that point, or in case other things happen. As you accumulate photos, your space required increases anyways. Plus, mass storage is stupid cheap. 4TB is like $120 these days for a good drive. Every 2 years or 3 years, you could get another one, with even more storage. That's super inexpensive if you think about it. $5 a month for that storage, if you put it in that perspective of 2 years.

Very best,

The detailed reply is much appreciated. Its pretty much what I suspected, hence my WD passports in the safe.
Mind you as I have a hot swap 3.5" bay spare, I am thinking of using these NAS drives as my backup. ( i.e. Take it out of the pc after backing up) At £129 for 4TB they seemed good value, and I am hoping one can transfer files faster to them in the workstation, than transfering to WD passports over USB 3.0 .


Canon EOS 5DS R, Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L Mk II IS USM, Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 L IS USM, EF 40mm F2.8 STM , RC6 Remote. Canon STE-3 Radio Flash Controller, Canon 600 EX RT x4 , YN 560 MkII x2 ; Bowens GM500PRO x4 , Bowens Remote Control. Bowens Pulsar TX, RX Radio Transmitter and Reciever Cards. Bowens Constant 530 Streamlights 600w x 4 Sold EOS 5D Mk III, 7D, EF 50mm F1.8, 430 EX Mk II, Bowens GM500Rs x4

  
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Submariner
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Apr 11, 2016 05:15 |  #8

eelnoraa wrote in post #17967802 (external link)
A1. Yes, from data retention point of view, nothing beat magnetic. It is still the most reliable medium. Having that said, the mechanical part of the HDD doesn't have the same reliability although it is quite good these days.

A2. It depends on your OS setting. In windows, you can set it to spin down if not access for certain amount of time.

A3. Most HDD spin at one speed, all except WD Green, I think.

A4. Yes, but I think it is in the OS, not BIOS.

I agree with MalVeaux in a sense, it is a good habit to change out HDD or SSD every so often. In enterprise storage, like data server in facebook or Amazon, they change out the drives every period of time based on a function of MTBF. Even if the drive still work, they will swap for new ones.

Thanks


Canon EOS 5DS R, Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L Mk II IS USM, Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 L IS USM, EF 40mm F2.8 STM , RC6 Remote. Canon STE-3 Radio Flash Controller, Canon 600 EX RT x4 , YN 560 MkII x2 ; Bowens GM500PRO x4 , Bowens Remote Control. Bowens Pulsar TX, RX Radio Transmitter and Reciever Cards. Bowens Constant 530 Streamlights 600w x 4 Sold EOS 5D Mk III, 7D, EF 50mm F1.8, 430 EX Mk II, Bowens GM500Rs x4

  
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Submariner
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Apr 11, 2016 05:18 |  #9

tim wrote in post #17967860 (external link)
1. I'm not sure anyone can really answer that question. If anyone gives you an answer ask for their references or evidence. Everything fails, and while you may be able to collect statistics you can't say what will happen with your drive in your environment.
2. Shouldn't be spinning, but that doesn't mean it won't be. Yes you should disconnect it.
3. Read the specs.
4. Unplug it, keep it offsite.

Some points for you to consider:
- Everything fails, usually when you're least prepare. Prepare for the worst case scenario.
- You have so major weaknesses in your data storage strategy. Get your images onto multiple drives in multiple locations immediately after any important shoot.
- If all your data is connected to your computer a virus can wipe it all.
- If all your data is in one location a fire can burn it all. "Fireproof safe" is a marketing term, not a technical one.
- Mirrored data is not a backup. Proper backups are incremental and offsite. That way randomware can't corrupt your data, you can always roll back to a previous version.
- Cloud backups are good, but depending on your data volume may not back up your images as quickly as you would. 2000 RAW images (a small wedding load) is 120GB would take a day or so to back up if you could get a constant 10Mbps upload. That's actually pretty quick. Not all cloud providers can support that upload speed, even if you have a 1Gbps internet connection.

Implement a pessimistic backup scheme with multiple sites, multiple copies of data, incremental where appropriate, to back up data as quickly as possible after creation.

Thanks.
Althoughthe Cloud idea seemed interesting, the transfer speed really put me off.


Canon EOS 5DS R, Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L Mk II IS USM, Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 L IS USM, EF 40mm F2.8 STM , RC6 Remote. Canon STE-3 Radio Flash Controller, Canon 600 EX RT x4 , YN 560 MkII x2 ; Bowens GM500PRO x4 , Bowens Remote Control. Bowens Pulsar TX, RX Radio Transmitter and Reciever Cards. Bowens Constant 530 Streamlights 600w x 4 Sold EOS 5D Mk III, 7D, EF 50mm F1.8, 430 EX Mk II, Bowens GM500Rs x4

  
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joeseph
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Apr 12, 2016 04:35 |  #10

Realisticly, data needs to be able to be accessed long term - you only have to go back a few years to understand that both the format of data (numerous RAW versions) and HDD access methods (IDE anyone?) change over time. You almost need to constantly look at the availability of your data, and need to convert to different format as & when the storage methods become obsolete.
Seriously, there is no long term storage that remains permanently accessable whilst interface types & data types change.


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Durability ? About semi long term storage, and HDD question.
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