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Thread started 12 May 2016 (Thursday) 03:56
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Filters... to have or not to have..

 
JacobL
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May 12, 2016 03:56 |  #1

I've been following the long battle of filter vs. no filter and yesterday evening I found the reason I will never retire my filters.
Here is a comparison of a SINGLE shot, not HDR, no processing, no pulling the blacks, NOTHING.
one side has a polarizer filter and ND, and the other adds a Reverse Grad filter.
Guess which one is which.
For getting a single shot, with perfect exposure, color and light balance, without resorting to pulling 3-4 stops just to balance in image, I believe that filters are a must.
Yes, we don't always have time to set up and plan the shot, but for landscape, sunset, sunrise and the such, we can spare those 3-5 minutes of setup to get the perfect shot.

Again, no pixels were touched on both sides of the image.

IMAGE: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/hostedphotos_lq/2016/05/2/LQ_792717.jpg
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flyfisher
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May 12, 2016 13:54 |  #2

Good example of how much difference that a filter can make. the time saving in processing alone is worth using filters. thanks for sharing the comparison.


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gjl711
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May 12, 2016 14:07 |  #3

There is a huge difference between a filter for effect, and a filter no no apparent reason. I don't think anyone from the anti-filter camp is going to argue that a ND grad is useless, but a ND grad along with a UV filter is going to get you an argument. ;):)


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DreDaze
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May 12, 2016 14:16 |  #4

i gave up on my grad ND filters...it's just so much easier for me to bracket, and get shots that more closely resemble what i'm seeing...the filters i used kinda gave that purple tint shown in your photo on the left...i feel like the more noticeable thing in your comparisons is the longer exposure for the left photo the water looks more pleasing to me in that one


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JacobL
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May 12, 2016 15:55 as a reply to  @ DreDaze's post |  #5

Bracketing is impossible when dealing with long exposures with a large dynamic range.
This is a 1.5 minute exposure, can't be bracketed correctly because blending those long exposures with water is nearly impossible.

IMAGE: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/hostedphotos_lq/2016/05/2/LQ_792770.jpg
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This is 6 minutes, again, no blending can deal with getting a clean image with no processing marks from water..

IMAGE: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/hostedphotos_lq/2016/05/2/LQ_792771.jpg
Image hosted by forum (792771) © JacobL [SHARE LINK]
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There is no purple tint, it's a little different white balance as I posted them directly from camera but those are very clean colorless filters. (Lee and Firecrest)



  
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May 12, 2016 17:36 |  #6

JacobL wrote in post #18004883 (external link)
Bracketing is impossible when dealing with long exposures with a large dynamic range.
This is a 1.5 minute exposure, can't be bracketed correctly because blending those long exposures with water is nearly impossible.

Hosted photo: posted by JacobL in
./showthread.php?p=180​04883&i=i58852895
forum: Nature & Landscapes


This is 6 minutes, again, no blending can deal with getting a clean image with no processing marks from water..

Hosted photo: posted by JacobL in
./showthread.php?p=180​04883&i=i74630620
forum: Nature & Landscapes


There is no purple tint, it's a little different white balance as I posted them directly from camera but those are very clean colorless filters. (Lee and Firecrest)

Out of curiosity, which Firecrest filters are you using & how do you find them in comparison to B+W (apart from being less expensive)?


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Bcaps
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May 12, 2016 22:51 |  #7

Put me squarely in the "my ND Grads are obsolete and gathering dust" camp (but I do love my ND's). I always struggled with scenes that had elements like mountains and trees that didn't conform to the flat and horizontal line of the grad. So I learned techniques like blending bracketed images or multi-processing a RAW file for those types of situations.

After getting good at it, it typically takes me seconds to a few minutes to blend a sky/land image. With the below image I don't think I could have used an ND grad and gotten a good result. There just isn't any way to control the brightness of the sky on the right without also adversely darkening the mountains. Even if I rotated the grad clockwise to avoid the mountains it still would have overly darkened the landmass on the right while leaving the sky to the left of the mountains overly bright. The blend from one RAW processed twice took me about 2-3 minutes:

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/563/23127054666_d9a55b1405_b.jpg
Photo from Bcaps's gallery.

JacobL wrote in post #18004349 (external link)
For getting a single shot, with perfect exposure, color and light balance, without resorting to pulling 3-4 stops just to balance in image, I believe that filters are a must. Yes, we don't always have time to set up and plan the shot, but for landscape, sunset, sunrise and the such, we can spare those 3-5 minutes of setup to get the perfect shot.

If your RAW can handle pulling 3-4 stops, that's a beautiful thing! It allows you to, as you say, get a single shot with perfect exposure, color and light balance, you just do it with a "digital" filter and not a glass one and you have far more control over how the digital filter is applied. Below is the straight out of camera RAW for the processed image above. As you can see I pulled up the shadows a lot. I have printed this at 36" wide and there is zero noise in the shadows.

IMAGE: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/hostedphotos_lq/2016/05/2/LQ_792853.jpg
Image hosted by forum (792853) © Bcaps [SHARE LINK]
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flyfisher wrote in post #18004764 (external link)
Good example of how much difference that a filter can make. the time saving in processing alone is worth using filters. thanks for sharing the comparison.

Once you are good at blending photos it is actually easier to blend than it is to use filters. For a shot similar to that posted by the OP that has a very defined transition line you could blend the two shots in less time than it would have taken to get the the filter holder out of the bag. Maybe 10 seconds or so for that blend. There is also the added benefit of not having to deal with the space and weight of the filter system which is always something of a concern when I'm backpacking.

JacobL wrote in post #18004883 (external link)
Bracketing is impossible when dealing with long exposures with a large dynamic range.
This is a 1.5 minute exposure, can't be bracketed correctly because blending those long exposures with water is nearly impossible.

Hosted photo: posted by JacobL in
./showthread.php?p=180​04883&i=i58852895
forum: Nature & Landscapes


This is 6 minutes, again, no blending can deal with getting a clean image with no processing marks from water..

Hosted photo: posted by JacobL in
./showthread.php?p=180​04883&i=i74630620
forum: Nature & Landscapes


There is no purple tint, it's a little different white balance as I posted them directly from camera but those are very clean colorless filters. (Lee and Firecrest)

Jacob, those are a couple of really nice shots. I do have to disagree with the impossibility of blending long exposures that has a large dynamic range. Both of those photos would have been a straightforward blend using a gradient mask on the sky and luminosity masks elsewhere. In fact, I can't really think of any (?) situation that would not allow for a blend of images to control dynamic range whereas I can think of a number of situations where an ND grad would be impossible to use and still get a good shot, like in my photo above.

And here is something funny. I really dig your two shots above and I wanted to see more of your work so I did a google reverse image search on your shot at the bottom of your post to see if you had a website. The very first image that came up was taken by someone standing about a mile away from me who was also capturing this exact same sunrise. How random is that?!


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gjl711
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May 12, 2016 23:08 |  #8

Bcaps wrote in post #18005287 (external link)
Put me squarely in the "my ND Grads are obsolete and gathering dust" camp (but I do love my ND's). I always struggled with scenes that had elements like mountains and trees that didn't conform to the flat and horizontal line of the grad. So I learned techniques like blending bracketed images or multi-processing a RAW file for those types of situations. ...

Yea, ND grads are pretty usless unless you have a nice straight horizon. I too prefer to bracket or even single image bracket processing a single image differently and blending as needed. This image would be impossible to expose with a ND grad.

IMAGE: https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3414/3268885673_fb5902f18f_b.jpg

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DreDaze
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May 12, 2016 23:15 as a reply to  @ JacobL's post |  #9

i don't see why there would be an issue with those long exposure shots...i could see if you had shorter exposures with waves in them, and the waves not matching up...but long exposures would seem to be easier...the exif doesn't seem to be matching up with your exposure times...i gotta ask what kind of ND are you using to get a 6 min exposure at sunrise/sunset?


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JacobL
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May 13, 2016 01:16 |  #10

Thanks for all the comments.

1. For scenes with just large dynamic range, I use blending like everyone else :) very useful and has given me excellent results.
2. I do find that I use GND less and less, however the Reverse GND is used frequently especially in sunset/sunrise settings over water.
3. When dealing with scenes with very uneven terrain, filters are harder to use and even become irrelevant, that is why I definately use luminosity masking, and other types of exposure blending. These are all tools to achieve the same goal
4. Long exposures with water or moving skies are hard to blend due to the changing landscape between the frames. under exposed image gives a certain texture, and the over exposed gives a different texture and they are hard to match. I've had a long discussion withJimmy Mcintyre on this and in these cases he also feels the need for filters dues to very complex blending if at all possible.
5. EXIF is wrong - these images are not single exposures, but stacked long exposures. The 6 minutes is 45 frames of 8 seconds and the second is tons of 0.8 seconds exposures.

Again, I definitely use all those techniques described for blending and such, but excluding and dismissing the use of filters when they are extremely useful - that is the point.




  
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acevesf
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Jun 27, 2016 18:05 as a reply to  @ JacobL's post |  #11

I am just starting tog et into this landscape stuff lol. JacobL, how are you stacking these images in post, is it similar to HDR? or are they just a bunch of layers on top of each other?




  
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JacobL
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Jun 29, 2016 02:20 as a reply to  @ acevesf's post |  #12

stacked exposures for long exposure -

http://digital-photography-school.com …sure-with-photo-stacking/ (external link)




  
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acevesf
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Jun 29, 2016 17:41 as a reply to  @ JacobL's post |  #13

Awesome thanks!




  
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