iCloud v dropbox v other things - how do you store your photos?

I'm in a confused mess and need to figure out what I need to learn and would appreciate any opinions or guidance please.

At the moment, when I take photos I import them to my mac, and to the originally named "Photos", and they are also stored in iCloud.com I am totally confused about where the original pictures are being stored, and have only just learned that I had more than one "library" which explained why photos on one computer were not appearing on another, so I'm in the process of sorting that out.

My husband uses dropbox. He doesn't use a mac, but he says this way of storing photos is straightforward and reliable.

I'm wondering if there is a 'usual' or 'known best method' that photographers tend to use?

I am trying to educate myself online, but most of what I find compares things with old systems rather than just explains them from scratch.

So... once you've taken your photographs, what do you do - do you import them to photos, to lightroom, to dropbox, to a portable hard drive or something else?
Do you then make files, folders or albums?
Where do you edit them?
What do you use to share the pictures you want to share with your customers? (I've got a zenfolio account and am uploading pictures to that, but people are telling me that what they want is to see them on Facebook or their phones).

Any advice will be welcomed. Thank you.

It seems as if you are confusing the storage of your original image files, be they RAW files from your camera, or camera generated JPEG files, with the fully processed finished image files that you post to the web for viewing on various platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, or even Flickr.

The most important place to start is with the original images on your computer. Here there is a big difference between Apple and Windows. Windows doesn't really have a default image management application, while Apple has Photos (formally iPhotos). I'm now going to mention some quite complex system information. Photos by default uses a storage system that holds all of your files embedded within a large single database file. This is OK, but you have to ensure that you have good backups of that database file. If the hard drive fails, and some part of that file becomes corrupted it may cause you to lose ALL of the data contained in that single file. This could be ALL of your photos. Personally I think this is a less than perfect solution. I would rather use a system where all of the image files are stored as individual files, losing a single file to corruption doesn't affect any of the other files. It does though mean that you will need to manage the backing up of your files yourself. When it comes to my image files I would always want to have the original untouched files saved in at least two locations. The main drive that is used to keep working copies, and also a separate copy that is on a removable disk, that is only connected to the computer while you are doing the backup. Ideally you would want to keep two backup, with one disk normally kept somewhere else. I usually keep my images on disks stored in folders by year and then date. This is very simple to manage from a file's point of view, and I use a management system that uses things like applied keywords to help sort the images in whatever way I need.

For image management I use Adobe's Lightroom, one of the advantages of that is that it works on both Apple and Windows machines. If I keep all of my images on external drives I can plug it in to either a Mac or a Windows machine and access the image library on the external drive. Lightroom manages images in much the same way as Photos, with one main exception. The LR image database holds lots of information about your image files, including all of the editing data. Unlike Photos though it only keeps a pointer to the location of the actual image file on the disk. I think this is a much better way of working as noted above. It also means that you have easy access to the file if you want to use some other bit of software. All you have to remember is that if you need to move the location of the file on the disk, you need to do it from within LR. All of LR's editing functions are what are known as non destructive. This means that at no time is any alteration ever done to the original file. To be able to access the edited image you will have to export the image from LR using one of the export options. The system that Photos uses means that you will have to export any image, edited or not, that you want to work on in any other program. LR has many advanced functions for managing your files once you have imported them into the library database (but remember that unlike Photos you have to remember that you also still have the original files in their location on disk outside of the database).

Once you have finished processing your images using whatever management and processing programs you chose to use, you need to save the processed file to disk (if you are not using Photos, LR or some other similar application you must remember not to save the edits over the original file that could be a bad move) in a stand alone editing program you would do this with a Save As command. With Photos, LR or a similar type of program you would do this by using one of the Export options. This essentially writes a new file with the edited image to the hard disk, usually as a JPEG file of a suitable size for uploading to the web or for any other particular use. Once the edited file is written to disk you then use the uploading tools of which ever service you want to use for those image you want to share online.

LR at least, I don't know about Photos, will actually go one further for you. LR has "Publishing" services, you simply tell LR that you want to publish images to a particular web service like FB or Flickr, by either manually dragging and dropping the file, or by setting up a set of search terms for the program to use to automatically select image files. LR is then able to connect to the online service, and once you tell it to upload the images it will generate all the necessary files, upload them to the service, and then remove all the local copies once it has finished uploading. If you then remove the image from the publish service in LR the next time you tell it to connect to the online service it will remove the image from there for you.

There are may of us that use LR as our main image management and viewing program, so we simply keep all of the edits in LR, and use LR for our local viewing program. We only export images from LR as and when they are needed for a specific reason. Once we have used the image for that reason we delete the file from the disk. It is very easy to export images from LR, and it has a system where you you can have many different variations of the image for different uses, without taking up huge amounts of disk space. So exporting a JPEG specifically for uploading to a particular service, or for printing is easier than trying to keep lots of actual different versions on your computer.

Sorry for the long post, for a complete beginner although your question seems simple there is quite a bit more to it. Of course it you are simply using a point and shoot camera or shooting with a smartphone, then all you really need is to load the images direct to the computer, and upload them directly to your preferred online service. Actually in this instance you would be better off using a windows based computer, as Photos is more complicated that needs be for simply uploading a few snaps. Or with a smart phone, just upload directly to your service of choice.

Alan

Thank you for your long reply. I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I have got Lightroom but haven't used it so will start learning that properly then I just seem to have photos all over the place lol. Once I've imported them in to Lightroom, do you know if that means I can delete them in Photos ?

Thanks

Basically what ^^ said, except both my "working" and "export" folders reside inside a Dropbox folder, so soon as its imported from a card its automatically being backed up

Thank you for your reply

So, do you mean that as you put your card in, all your images get imported straight to dropbox, and that from there, you export what you choose to lightroom (or import from lightroom) ?

My workflow

Take pictures
Insert card into computer
Lightroom automatically imports images from card to my "working" folder (then wipe out memory card within a few days)
I make my edits, deletes, etc
Export ones I want to my "export" folder

Where Dropbox comes in is that both of those folders (working and export) reside within a Dropbox folder.

That means soon as Dropbox senses a change to the folder it starts backing it up to their "cloud", which gives me piece of mind and doesn't require for me to have external HDDs, etc.

KalebA wrote in post #18036371
My workflow

Take pictures
Insert card into computer
Lightroom automatically imports images from card to my "working" folder (then wipe out memory card within a few days)
I make my edits, deletes, etc
Export ones I want to my "export" folder

Where Dropbox comes in is that both of those folders (working and export) reside within a Dropbox folder.

That means soon as Dropbox senses a change to the folder it starts backing it up to their "cloud", which gives me piece of mind and doesn't require for me to have external HDDs, etc.

It is VERY important to remember that Dropbox and other similar services are NOT real backup services. If for any reason a file gets deleted from one of your Dropbox folder it is also immediately deleted from the cloud. The only slightly common "cloud" storage service that actually works as backup is that provided by Amazon with a Prime membership. The Amazon service requires you to specifically upload files, and importantly also requires you to make a checked effort to delete files.

A case in point, I shared a set of images on Dropbox with a client, these were the only copies of the finished files. They then also shared them with their web developer. His Dropbox account filled up in in order to create space it seems as if he decided unilaterally to delete ALL of the image files. Mildly annoying for me, as I will be expected to recreate all of the files next time they are needed, and I can do that for my files. The thing is that the client had taken a few snaps themselves, and had stored these images in the same folder. I am certain that the only place these images were stored were in those Dropbox folders. The client no doubt will expect me to be able to solve that problem for them, and will get a shock when I tell them I can't. It will end up with me being blamed for this, because they unfortunately have zero IT skills. As well as providing them with photographic services, I also do electronic control systems design work for them, as well as writing Technical manuals and various other IT stuff.

My personal workflow is:

I shoot images always using RAW.

Put CF card in card reader.

LR copies the files to the selected drive location, and also imports the files in to the LR catalogue. (I usually just import all the RAW files. I will also apply some basic Keywords like general location and event details and EXIF data like copyright details and IPTC Subject codes during the import process)

Copy files from HDD location to backup drive. (This is done before reformating the CF cards, and is done using a file manager outside of LR, either the default OS file manager or sometimes I use Adobe's Bridge)

Apply detailed Keywords based on the specific content of each image. I do a lot of Aviation photography, so my specific keywords will consist of things like aircraft manufacturer and type, operating units/Sqn details etc.

I will usually create an LR Smart Collection, by using the keywords and IPTC subject codes for each different events. For repeating events I will then put them in a Collection of collections. Select the top level and you see all the images from all of the subcollections. I also have Smart Collections for all the Manufacturers, as well as for different display teams etc. The great thing about collections is that images can be in multiple different collections at the same time, and you only need the one master image file.

Once sorted I will then edit my images in the Develop module. The Develop Module is basically Adobe's standard RAW processor, ACR, wrapped in a different looking interface. All the tools are there though. For about 98% of my images I now only need to use the tools provided in LR. For the other 2%, that need additional editing using a program that offers the use of layers I use Photoshop. To use PS you have to send the image to PS from LR by exporting it using the Edit in Photoshop command. Once you have finished in PS you simply have to save the image (you don't use the Save As command in this case as LR has already created the "new" file that you need. I save as a .PSD file, although you also have the option of using TIFF. I always stay in 16 Bit colour mode, and retain all of my layers, so that I can easily go back to PS at any time to adjust the editing. Once finished in PS the new PSD file shows up in LR "stacked" with the original RAW file, so is easy to find.

I now have a finished image, although it only exists as a mix of a saved list of edits to apply to the image, and a single RAW file (or possibly as a .PSD file). I usually use a "green" colour lable for my completed images, and they also get a star rating. These stay like this in my LR catalogue, and I use LR for viewing them on my computer.

If I want to upload images to my Flickr account I will use the provided Flickr Publish Service. For an Airshow I will create a Smart collection in the Publish service that will select my Green labeled images from the event by using the keywords. This Collection will then be used as the basis for a Flickr Album, which is created the first time you upload from it. I will usually check that it has selected the correct images (it hasn't failed me yet, as long as I used the right terms for the selection) and hit the upload button to initiate the upload process. From here on it is fully automated. LR exports the images to JPEG files based on my chosen settings, uploads to Flickr and then deletes the local temp JPEG file. I usually do this once I have done a a half dozen or so images from the event. As I finish more images, and they then meet the selection criteria for the collection I will intermittently go to the Publish collection in LR and have it upload the new images. LR is very good at keeping track of what has been uploaded and what hasn't, or even removing images if they no longer match the correct criteria.

I could also do the same for Facbook or several other services that LR has Publish Services set up for.

If I have needs for other things then I tend to use the LR Export options. This allows you to export one or multiple images to a location on disk. In the example above of my client that I have set up on Dropbox, the images are exported to various Dropbox folders, and in various sizes, print, web and Thumbnail for example, using simple to create presets. All you have to do is set the settings in the export dialogue box how you want them, and press the save preset button. I have one preset that will export selected images as a JPEG with a long edge of 1280 Pixels, and saved to be smaller than 150KB for posting to POTN. Once I have uploaded the image to POTN I will then simply delete the file from my HDD.

As well as the Export option, LR also has Web, Slideshow, and Print Modules. The Web option will generate all the images files, as well as the HTML pages you need for creating a web image gallery. I use the Print module a lot, as I like to print. I think the LR Print module is the best image printing tool that I have ever used, it's much better than printing from say PS. You can use it to print both directly to a locally attached printer, or you can "Print to File" and then upload the file to your print lab of choice. The lab I use offer great prices, 16"×12" prints on Fuji Crystal Archive Glossy paper at £1.20 each, including our 20% VAT plus £4.50 P&P. I usually have 9 prints done at a time, the total cost is £15.30, or £1.53 each. If I upload by 1PM then they ship the same day. The normal RM service usually has them with me around 12PM the next day (the normal time our postie delivers to us). My home inkjet a Canon MG5150 costs me around £2.50 for an A4 sized print on top quality paper using OEM inks.

Alan

BigAl007 wrote in post #18036454
It ir VERY important to remember that Dropbox and other similar services are NOT real backup services. If for any reason a file gets deleted from one of your Dropbox folder it is also immediately deleted from the cloud. The only slightly common "cloud" storage service that actually works as backup is that provided by Amazon with a Prime membership. The Amazon service requires you to specifically upload files, and importantly also requires you to make a checked effort to delete files.

Incorrect, please do some research before the whole FIRE and BRIMSTONE charade

https://www.dropbox.co​m/en/help/115

Free retention for 30 days or option to get extended version history for 1 year


Edit: Also not smart to share folders containing originals/final product with whomever (clients or otherwise), that's asking for trouble.

There should be a separate operating procedures for sharing with others, first of which should be creating separate folder and sharing the redundant folder and/or something like physical media (thumb drive, etc)

Much of what has been said here for process I follow, with one major difference: I built my own cloud service.

My process is similar: Shoot, load cards to one of my computers, immediate backup to a separate network drive, scheduled backup from computers and network drive to a large network storage device. This means that all original photos, edited photos plus everything else on my multiple computers is backed up (the photos twice, once in a not "shared" drive).

Due to using multiple computers, LR is a little more difficult to manipulate but it can be done. As I'm the only user it is somewhat easier.

Dropbox is useful to transfer files to contacts, period. The network drive is accessible from outside through a multiple password protected process, so if needed can be used while on the road. Slower, but I'm in control.

The home network also gives me fast access (every piece 100K speed), no slow transfer speeds or concerns on data caps (don't have any caps myself, but a point to consider)

Building a home network system is somewhat expensive up front, but no further costs afterwards. Everything is commercially available off the shelf. the network drive is a 3 TB Western Digital Cloud device and the network storage is a 6 TB Western Digital. WD Smartware on all computers and the network drive run scheduled backups multiple times per week from each device. The 6TB device is set up to be not "shared" to protect from ransom ware. The 6 TB piece is quickly accessed and easy to pull out in case of an emergency. Should any part fail, it can be replaced and reconfigured quickly, even the 6 TB drive.

I have a couple of new websites that I'm building and experimenting with, I'm still figuring on the best way to use them. large groups of files are tedious. Probably develop some kind of "to see more..." set up. Always something new to learn.

"Cloud" isn't quite the right term, you have a local storage solution built on your LAN (though accessible via WAN through port forwarding, FTP, VPN, etc).

Biggest issues would be security and/or hardware failures.

Those could be reduced though with proper security measures and redundancy like RAID and also multiple locations (hopefully you're also backing up OUTSIDE your house along with the your multiple setups inside)

Cloud just happens to be the "popular" expression, so it is easier to use it. The operation is exactly the same to the user, just not using or paying a 3rd party for space or using extensive bandwidth and download/upload time. Users type access names and passwords, it doesn't matter where the device is or how the network works.

Getting into a lesson on network terminology and description usually just creates blank stares. Yes it is a network system using the methods described, but the majority of readers don't know the terms and it would more than likely just turn them off, when it actually is fairly simple to do. WD setup instructions are very easy to follow, just as an example.

Security is common off the shelf products such as McAfee and setting up access protocols, exactly the same as your computer. By setting the 6 TB storage not as a "share" we avoid even the latest in ransomware attacks. As all elements are fully backed to this, it is simple to re-configure any attacked elements. As the 6 TB is only a backup and not a used drive, it can be restored from the other devices.

RAID is not necessary in this setup and is a waste of storage space. 6 TB storage backs up devices, devices back up 6 TB storage.

Outside storage is external drives that are updated on a less extensive timetable (every couple of weeks or so unless something important added) and stored elsewhere. I was covering the OP original question on different methods. Thanks for mentioning it, as it is important too.

edit: Using outside storage devices is based upon your needs, as I have customer stuff and multiple computers and users I use it.

The point I'm after is that you can build a home storage even if you're not a tech or a network engineer, it is a valid consideration especially if you're using a lot of bandwidth. It is simple to do and should be part of the solution considerations.

edit: The size and complexity of the network also depends on your needs. If you're just using computers to store and edit, a single storage device with a separated network share for access could be all you need. And size matters

Thank you ever so much. It's taken me all day to get it sorted and photos up to dropbox but getting there now, and so far so good
One thing to ask you about the images in dropbox as I'm not sure if this is the way it's supposed to be or not - I have uploaded both jpg and raw files. The jpg's have little thumbnail pictures as I'd expect, but for the raw files, there's just an icon showing a mountain. Is this usual?


Now to properly learn how to use Lightroom which hopefully won't take too long.

Thanks

I'm sure you already know this, but in case anyone else reading this is as confused as I was when you share a folder with someone else, there is an option of whether they can edit or only view the pictures. I don't think I'd be enabling anyone else to edit, but if you do, what I think is the safest way to do it is to make a copy of all the pictures, with different names, and send them that. That way, your original files could not be altered in any way at all.

Thanks very much to all of you for your help and suggestions.

That sounds like a great idea, but is way beyond my ability at the moment. I like how you have it completely under your control though.

Yes RAW shows a mountain, this is a specific file type to the manufacturer and is seen as a file.

I agree, do not allow others to edit your originals.

It really is not that hard, the instructions for the set up were pretty good (from WD). I choose to ignore all the IT witchdoctor gobbletygook regarding networking, and I'm a tech the deals with this on a regular basis! Once you're through the intimidation, this stuff really is pretty easy to understand.

Good luck with your solution!