Flash for Dummies (me); very basic questions

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18038391
I want to be able to use flash effectively in shade, with slow shutter speeds, like my friend did with his set-up.
I also want to be able to use flash effective in shade, but with very high shutter speeds, for times when I am looking for different types of results.
I also want to use flash in bright sun, with slow shutter speeds.
And I also want to use flash in bright sun, at very high shutter speeds, when I am looking to create different types of images than I would be at slower speeds.

Basically, I want to be able to use flash in all kinds of different conditions and at any shutter speed at all.

Some basic principles under these conditions...

1. The fundamental exposure:

• Shooting in bright sun means that Sunny 16 rule applies: 1/ISO f/16, e.g. 1/200 f/16 ISO200
  
• Shooting in shade means that the derivative rule applies: 1/ISO f/5.6, e.g. 1/200 f/5.6 ISO200
  
• So if you shoot 1/ISO f/16 in shade with flash, the ambient light is inherently underexposed by -4EV (virtual black) so that any wing motion captured with ambient illumination is virtually black and not visible in the photo.
  

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18038288
Because I want to be able to use flash in many other types of situations. In order to freeze the wings, he had to establish studio-like conditions and he had to make it so that the ambient light had practically no effect on the exposure. Which means that this could only be done in a shaded area. I would like to use this type of setup "on the go", and carry it along with me in a backpack so that I can set it up anywhere in just a few minutes time. A lot of the places I would like to use such a setup would be in sunny areas that are far away from roads and trails, and it would be impossible to create or find a shady area, and I would still want to freeze the wings.

Plus, if I get flash equipment I want to be able to use it high up in trees for woodpecker nests, and out in the prairie for running deer, etc, etc, etc. Having to stay below the body's synch speed would limit the scenarios in which I could use flash, and I want to be able to use flash in all conditions, not just the ones in which a slow shutter speed can be used.

Skimming through the thread, I don't know if anyone has addressed what I put in bold, above.

Tom, one very important thing to note is that light drops off extremely fast with distance. If the subject is far away, the flash will be ineffective.

There's a rule of thumb called the "inverse square law." If you want to make yourself miserable, there's a lot of math involved - but the easiest explanation is that if you double the flash-to-subject distance, you must quadruple the flash power.

It looks like in the hummingbird setup, the flashes are about three feet away from the hummingbird. If you move the flashes so they're six feet away, you would have to quadruple the flash power (two stops). Move them so they're twelve feet away, and you'll need 16x the flash power (four stops). I rarely do the math, but the concept is always with me: As I move the flash farther from the subject, I need more power.

This isn't a problem with the hummingbirds because you can use the placement of the feeder to put the birds exactly where you want them, and they're small enough to fly right there into that space between the flash and the green backdrop. But for a woodpecker nest high in a tree, you're going to be doing a lot of climbing to put the flashes near the nest, or using an extremely powerful flash to light up the distant subject.

Same thing with the running deer; if you can't put the flash near the deer, you'll have to turn the power up extremely high. If you're a hundred feet away, there's no Speedlight out there that's going to accomplish anything. And, once you have your flash power dialed in just-so, you'll need the deer to run in the exact location you've predicted, if they're farther away the flash will be too weak, if they're too close, the flash will wash them out. (I don't know if deer run along predictable trails)

The flash experts will comment on this saying the actual math is not accurate but this will give you a good idea about fall off or the inverse square law.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=f5BIvSBjvLg

Hi.

Adorama rebrands the Godox flashes with their own model names.

I made this chart to try to control the madness:

https://docs.google.co​m …9FIDHU/edit?usp​=drive_web


I doubt many Adorama employees would be likely to know the Godox equivalent model numbers, or admit it if they did.

Owen.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18042440
Wow - that's awesome!
Unfortunately, and this is a big downer - B&H is no longer carrying Godox products.
This is problematic for me because I don't have a credit card or debit, and can only pay for items online using my PayPal balance. B&H is great at accepting PayPal for online orders, and I know that Amazon does not accept PayPal at all. Hmmmmm. Maybe I'll try Adorama? If I get confused at Adorama I can just hit Helen up here with a PM!

EDIT: On Adorama's website, I am not able to find either the Godox flash or the Godox transmitter that you suggested. I called Adorama to try to talk with a live person and ask about these products, but after working thru menus and waiting on hold for 8 minutes I finally gave up. Customer service & product availability don't seem to be what they used to be. Cripes! Getting what I need is becoming very tough.

.

Please email me: Helen@adorama.com and I'll have a sales rep contact you directly (generally more useful than CS, if you want product info)

digital paradise wrote in post #18038372
...

Here is a good video that explains HSS if you are interested. This is PW ad which you don't need. There are other ways to get off camera HSS.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=gXVdNwsNJiI

my question is this?

how did they get the 580ex II, to actually work?

when i was running P/Ws i had probably a 75/25 ratio of no-fire to fire with my 580s. even with the little faraday cage baggies...

Ltdave wrote in post #18043482
my question is this?

how did they get the 580ex II, to actually work?

when i was running P/Ws i had probably a 75/25 ratio of no-fire to fire with my 580s. even with the little faraday cage baggies...

I have no idea. I know nothing about PW.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18042440
Wow - that's awesome!
Unfortunately, and this is a big downer - B&H is no longer carrying Godox products.
This is problematic for me because I don't have a credit card or debit, and can only pay for items online using my PayPal balance. B&H is great at accepting PayPal for online orders, and I know that Amazon does not accept PayPal at all. Hmmmmm. Maybe I'll try Adorama? If I get confused at Adorama I can just hit Helen up here with a PM!

EDIT: On Adorama's website, I am not able to find either the Godox flash or the Godox transmitter that you suggested. I called Adorama to try to talk with a live person and ask about these products, but after working thru menus and waiting on hold for 8 minutes I finally gave up. Customer service & product availability don't seem to be what they used to be. Cripes! Getting what I need is becoming very tough.

.

from what i see the XT-32 transmitter is not shipping yet and it does not even have pricing released. I expect that you will be paying the same for the godox cheap flash and relatively expensive transmitter as you will for the YN flash and cheaper transmitter. Plus you will miss out on ETTL should you ever discover the benefits, and trust me there are benefits to it that i believe you will discover.

I'm guessing you didn't mind having green box mode on your camera, don't over think avoiding the possibility of ETTL (auto/green box) for the flash. Sorry if i sound like a broken record.

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18043613
from what i see the XT-32 transmitter is not shipping yet and it does not even have pricing released. I expect that you will be paying the same for the godox cheap flash and relatively expensive transmitter as you will for the YN flash and cheaper transmitter. Plus you will miss out on ETTL should you ever discover the benefits, and trust me there are benefits to it that i believe you will discover.

I'm guessing you didn't mind having green box mode on your camera, don't over think avoiding the possibility of ETTL (auto/green box) for the flash. Sorry if i sound like a broken record.

Okay, I will reconsider. But it seemed so easy to just go with what that guy said to get in that post that he wrote - if I just follow someone's advice right down to the exact model number then I don;t have to think. And trying to wrap my brain around this whole flash thing is really tough - it's like I can't just think the way I normally do, I actually have to force my brain to think about certain things and then maintain focus and concentration on those things until I have it all figured out. It headaches me.

By the way I don't know what you mean by "green box mode". What is that?

.

HelenOster wrote in post #18043455
Please email me: Helen@adorama.com and I'll have a sales rep contact you directly (generally more useful than CS, if you want product info)

Thanks so much, Helen. You are always helpful!
I emailed you, and look forward to hearing from a rep whenever one is able to call (no urgent rush or anything).

.

Tom, you can also use the Flashpoint R2 transmitter (Godox X1T-C) - http://www.adorama.com​/FPRRR2TC.html

instead of the Godox XT32 transmitter.

Though unfortunately Adorama do not have the TT600 (Flashpoint Zoom R2 Manual) available just yet either.

And a little strangely Adorama have those pre-listed at $99, where they are generally matching or beating the Ebay prices (which are from $69 for the TT600). So you may want to check on that.


The TT600 and XT32 (for Canon) are available now on Ebay though.

YongNuo YN-622C-TX and YN685 are also a decent option as Left Handed Brisket mentions.

Though the Godox system and Adorama are moving forward pretty quickly if you're not in a hurry just now.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18044547
Okay, I will reconsider. But it seemed so easy to just go with what that guy said to get in that post that he wrote - if I just follow someone's advice right down to the exact model number then I don;t have to think. And trying to wrap my brain around this whole flash thing is really tough - it's like I can't just think the way I normally do, I actually have to force my brain to think about certain things and then maintain focus and concentration on those things until I have it all figured out. It headaches me.

By the way I don't know what you mean by "green box mode". What is that?

.

By green box mode he mean's "Auto"


For what you are wanting to do I would go with the Godox, Cheetah, Flashpoint (all exactly the same, just different names) Li-Ion flashes. They recycle very quickly and that battery will last alot longer. You would have to change AA batteries several times to get the same amount of pops as 1 Li-ion battery. And when you are talking 4 flashes that is a LOT of eneloops.


For a transmitter you can run the Flashpoint R2 or Godox/Cheetah X1.


If you want to save some money I know there is a used/barely used one for sale here in the classifieds

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18038923
Wow, Elv, you have once again knocked it out of the park! Great write up, thanks for sharing. I have purposely been avoiding the Flash and Studio Lighting board to keep my gear envy in check and have missed out on the latest from Godox. You just ruined three or four months of keeping my head in the sand!

Your XT32 page does not list pricing or availability, saying that more info is coming at the end of May.

http://flashhavoc.com …32-transmitter-announced/

Are you still waiting on this info and the official release?

you can get one of the Cheetahstand versions right now.

http://www.cheetahstan​d.com/product-p/cl-xt32c.htm

$54.00

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18043613
I'm guessing you didn't mind having green box mode on your camera, don't over think avoiding the possibility of ETTL (auto/green box) for the flash. Sorry if i sound like a broken record.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18044547
By the way I don't know what you mean by "green box mode". What is that?

Scoobert wrote in post #18044766
By green box mode he mean's "Auto"

Oh, well if that is what Brian meant then I should clarify things by saying that I have no use for the AUTOMATIC setting. I can't imagine using such at thing! Wouldn't that be taking control of aperture away from me? I mean, it is preposterous to allow a camera to select what aperture I shoot with. How the heck would a camera know what my artistic objectives are for a particular shot, with respect to depth of field?

With flash, I am not looking to use flash to give me light in situations where there is not enough ambient light. Rather, I am looking to use flash in situations where there is plenty of ambient light, and I would just use the flash as a way to have greater control over the light in an image.

A friend uses flash quite effectively on deer that are 75-150 feet away. He only uses it at 1/64th or 1/128th power. The way he uses flash has no effect on the overall exposure; rather, it just gives a little different look to the image. If I look at a frame he shot without flash on a big monitor, and then look at the same scene, shot with flash a second or two later, I can detect a very slight difference in the overall look of the image.....but I have to look for it - the difference is very subtle and barely detectable. I can see myself using flash in this way much more than I would ever use it in the more traditional ways.

To me, uneducated as I am when it comes to flash, it seems that the TTL or ETTL thing may only come into play if one is actually using the flash to provide a significant amount of the overall light for an image. But I realize that I may be misunderstanding this whole ETTL or TTL thing, and am certainly open to more explanations.

By the way, I see two acronyms used a lot here in this thread - "ETL" and "TTL". What is the difference between the two?

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Tom Reichner wrote in post #18044812
Oh, well if that is what Brian meant then I should clarify things by saying that I have no use for the AUTOMATIC setting. I can't imagine using such at thing! Wouldn't that be taking control of aperture away from me? I mean, it is preposterous to allow a camera to select what aperture I shoot with. How the heck would a camera know what my artistic objectives are for a particular shot, with respect to depth of field?

With flash, I am not looking to use flash to give me light in situations where there is not enough ambient light. Rather, I am looking to use flash in situations where there is plenty of ambient light, and I would just use the flash as a way to have greater control over the light in an image.

A friend uses flash quite effectively on deer that are 75-150 feet away. He only uses it at 1/64th or 1/128th power. The way he uses flash has no effect on the overall exposure; rather, it just gives a little different look to the image. If I look at a frame he shot without flash on a big monitor, and then look at the same scene, shot with flash a second or two later, I can detect a very slight difference in the overall look of the image.....but I have to look for it - the difference is very subtle and barely detectable. I can see myself using flash in this way much more than I would ever use it in the more traditional ways.

To me, uneducated as I am when it comes to flash, it seems that the TTL or ETTL thing may only come into play if one is actually using the flash to provide a significant amount of the overall light for an image. But I realize that I may be misunderstanding this whole ETTL or TTL thing, and am certainly open to more explanations.

By the way, I see two acronyms used a lot here in this thread - "ETL" and "TTL". What is the difference between the two?

.

ETTL is for digital cameras. TLL is for film. they still leave the TTL option for the film shooters.