Any Canon 600EX RT ( preferably using the STE3 commander ) who can explain OCF with this unit.

Hi
I have 4 x Canon 600 Ex Rt's (MkI) and use the STE3 Commander on my 5DS R. Sadlly due to poor weather at the end if last year and horrible weather here in the UK so far every day I can shoot. They have had very little usage.

My goal is to use them for outside location portraits head and shoulders and full length body portraits.

Previously I had 3 so set the camera in Manual, and the 600's as the slaves and used them on a stand with a small umbrella each, using one of those adapters able to hold an umbrella. I set the commander and slaves to ETTLII, and exposed the scene formthe background on the camera.
Not much use but it seemed to do a reasonable job with most exposures, not perfect but quick amd effective and only a few really bad ones.
So overall it worked fairly well, and handled fleeting dark clouds (changing the exposure) a lot faster than I could adjust 4 strobes if they were in manual mode!

my issues :-
1. were carrying stuff, and brollies blowing over the stand happened once and a 600 hit the ground , making a small dent in the plastic but it seems to work ok.
Q1 if I dispense with the umbrellas, what is the effect? Does it make the images more harsh i.e. The Face?
Q2. With no umbrellas will it lose or gain light, i.e. Become more or less efficient?
Q3. If going bare flash, as opposed to reflected back from a brolly, makes it harsher ? Are portable mini soft-boxes a viable option?
- do they help soften the look a lot or a little?
- what is the effect on ETTLII see below. Does the softbox effect the test signal ? or am I Correct, as the evaluation is through the lens it doesnt matter? I.e. The camera sees the resultant test fire through whatever medium I use, naked, shoot through brolly, or reflected brolly.?
Q4. The 600s come with a Colour filtre adaptor. i was wondering could one just put in a peice of white cloth, like say made of a softbox diffusser to soften the direct flash? I appreciate it will weaken the flash output. I assume I would have turn off the colour filter detector - to avoid screwing up the flash?


My understanding on ETTLII Autoflash
If I have one commander and 4x 600s OCF. As I press the shutter button it tells each unit to fire a test blitz, evaluates the effect through the lens, and then sends back a 'required power' signal command to each unit for the 'real' exposing flash.
This works in Av Tv M
It works up tom1/x flash sync speed which on this camera is 1/200 sec.
If I require faster flash sync I must set the commander to HSS. I understand this will then set HSS on all seperate OCF units?

What throws me is a setting called "EXT. A auto-flash" as described on p.36. It appears this is like autoflash , but this works by shutting off the flash once a perfect exposure is achieved . Am I right this is only for On Camera flash?

I also assume if you used this then you have to be careful using minimsoftboxes in case they obstruct the Onboard units flash metering lens on the speedlights body.

And finally these flashes have a zoom function! Does this only works if the Speedlight is on the cameras hot shoe?
When using OCF what do you set them to, or is it just trial amd error?

Any tips appreciated.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
Hi
I have 4 x Canon 600 Ex Rt's (MkI) and use the STE3 Commander on my 5DS R. Sadlly due to poor weather at the end if last year and horrible weather here in the UK so far every day I can shoot. They have had very little usage.

My goal is to use them for outside location portraits head and shoulders and full length body portraits.

Previously I had 3 so set the camera in Manual, and the 600's as the slaves and used them on a stand with a small umbrella each, using one of those adapters able to hold an umbrella. I set the commander and slaves to ETTLII, and exposed the scene formthe background on the camera.
Not much use but it seemed to do a reasonable job with most exposures, not perfect but quick amd effective and only a few really bad ones.
So overall it worked fairly well, and handled fleeting dark clouds (changing the exposure) a lot faster than I could adjust 4 strobes if they were in manual mode!

my issues :-
1. were carrying stuff, and brollies blowing over the stand happened once and a 600 hit the ground , making a small dent in the plastic but it seems to work ok.
Q1 if I dispense with the umbrellas, what is the effect? Does it make the images more harsh i.e. The Face?

The light will be "harder" the transitions from highlight to shadow will be sharper and less gradual - kind of like looking at your shadow in full sun or an overcast day, one is sharp edged and harsh, fhe other has nice soft transitions at the edge

Q2. With no umbrellas will it lose or gain light, i.e. Become more or less efficient?

you gain light by removing the brolly - the speedlight doesnt have to work as hard as the brolly isnt absorbing or diffusing the light

Q3. If going bare flash, as opposed to reflected back from a brolly, makes it harsher ? Are portable mini soft-boxes a viable option?

How small ?
the lumiquest LTP would be the smallest i would use, and only in close

- do they help soften the look a lot or a little?

Depends on the size and distance to subject.
A good guideline is you will get reasonably soft light with the front of the modifier placed at X distance from the subject or less - where X is the diagonal size of the modifier.

- what is the effect on ETTLII see below. Does the softbox effect the test signal ? or am I Correct, as the evaluation is through the lens it doesnt matter? I.e. The camera sees the resultant test fire through whatever medium I use, naked, shoot through brolly, or reflected brolly.?

Flashes fire a test flash, camera sees them bounce off the subject, and adjusts.

Doesnt matter what you are firing through (except for things like brick walls, obviously)

Q4. The 600s come with a Colour filtre adaptor. i was wondering could one just put in a peice of white cloth, like say made of a softbox diffusser to soften the direct flash? I appreciate it will weaken the flash output. I assume I would have turn off the colour filter detector - to avoid screwing up the flash?

The colour detector shouldnt make a difference off camera - when the flash is used on camera it automatically adjusts the WB to match the flash+filter
Putting a bit of fabric in it will only spread the light like a stofen it wont help soften the light unless you are inside with walls to bounce the light off

My understanding on ETTLII Autoflash
If I have one commander and 4x 600s OCF. As I press the shutter button it tells each unit to fire a test blitz, evaluates the effect through the lens, and then sends back a 'required power' signal command to each unit for the 'real' exposing flash.
This works in Av Tv M
It works up tom1/x flash sync speed which on this camera is 1/200 sec.
If I require faster flash sync I must set the commander to HSS. I understand this will then set HSS on all seperate OCF units?

Correct - and that is my understanding with HSS too.
Not something i use (HSS is very inefficient, and i am frequently working at the limits of what speedlights can do effectively)


What throws me is a setting called "EXT. A auto-flash" as described on p.36. It appears this is like autoflash , but this works by shutting off the flash once a perfect exposure is achieved . Am I right this is only for On Camera flash?

I havent played with this feature - but from what i understand, it works like an old school thryistor controlled flash

I also assume if you used this then you have to be careful using minimsoftboxes in case they obstruct the Onboard units flash metering lens on the speedlights body.

I believe that is correct

And finally these flashes have a zoom function! Does this only works if the Speedlight is on the cameras hot shoe?
When using OCF what do you set them to, or is it just trial amd error?

all it really does, is track the lens focal length with the flash beam - so you dont have a tiny "200mm" spot in the middle of your 28mm pic, or waste light by covering a 28mm frame when you are shooting with a 200mm lens.

Off camera i leave mine manually set to around 35mm (i flip the wide panel down in my softbox, to fill it properly)
I havent really looked at what it does when the flashes are off camera (i prefer manual control for everything

Any tips appreciated.

Start reading lighting 101 at strobist.com
You dont really need 4 speedlights, although it can be handy to double then up for more power or faster recycle.
Most of my work is done with 1 or 2 600EX
And a lastolite 24" ezybox.
I have misplaced both of my brollies (wescott double folds, excellent for stuffing in the corner of your bag)

Echo63 wrote in post #18084659
Start reading lighting 101 at strobist.com
You dont really need 4 speedlights, although it can be handy to double then up for more power or faster recycle.
Most of my work is done with 1 or 2 600EX
And a lastolite 24" ezybox.
I have misplaced both of my brollies (wescott double folds, excellent for stuffing in the corner of your bag)

I will have a look at that but does it explain the way the 600 ex rt works?

Lots of question. I'm far from an expert but I'll try to answer.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
...my issues :-
1. were carrying stuff, and brollies blowing over the stand happened once and a 600 hit the ground , making a small dent in the plastic but it seems to work ok.
Q1 if I dispense with the umbrellas, what is the effect? Does it make the images more harsh i.e. The Face?

If your light sources no longer "wrap around" your subject, but effectively become point sources of light, then yes - lighting will be hard.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
Q2. With no umbrellas will it lose or gain light, i.e. Become more or less efficient?

It will gain light since the diffusion panel and umbrella material are not absorbing the light.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
Q3. If going bare flash, as opposed to reflected back from a brolly, makes it harsher ? Are portable mini soft-boxes a viable option?
- do they help soften the look a lot or a little?
- what is the effect on ETTLII see below. Does the softbox effect the test signal ? or am I Correct, as the evaluation is through the lens it doesnt matter? I.e. The camera sees the resultant test fire through whatever medium I use, naked, shoot through brolly, or reflected brolly.?

The meter doesn't know that your light is in a softbox. It sends a test flash, checks to see how much it affected the zones/pixels in the scene, and then increases the power based on the result.

I like to imagine the angles of my light source hitting my subject. If the light source is smaller than my subject and the angle of light is a cone shape, with the tip being the light source, then I am not wrapping light around the subject so I'll get hard light.

If the light source is larger, the cone of light will be inverse and will wrap around the subject, causing "soft" light.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
Q4. The 600s come with a Colour filtre adaptor. i was wondering could one just put in a peice of white cloth, like say made of a softbox diffusser to soften the direct flash? I appreciate it will weaken the flash output. I assume I would have turn off the colour filter detector - to avoid screwing up the flash?

That wouldn't work. Some of the light will just disperse and not hit your subject at all. The rest of the light rays, now less, will still hit your subject at the same angle. Same hard light.

Submariner wrote in post #18084580
My understanding on ETTLII Autoflash
If I have one commander and 4x 600s OCF. As I press the shutter button it tells each unit to fire a test blitz, evaluates the effect through the lens, and then sends back a 'required power' signal command to each unit for the 'real' exposing flash.
This works in Av Tv M
It works up tom1/x flash sync speed which on this camera is 1/200 sec.
If I require faster flash sync I must set the commander to HSS. I understand this will then set HSS on all seperate OCF units?

What throws me is a setting called "EXT. A auto-flash" as described on p.36. It appears this is like autoflash , but this works by shutting off the flash once a perfect exposure is achieved . Am I right this is only for On Camera flash?

I also assume if you used this then you have to be careful using minimsoftboxes in case they obstruct the Onboard units flash metering lens on the speedlights body.

And finally these flashes have a zoom function! Does this only works if the Speedlight is on the cameras hot shoe?
When using OCF what do you set them to, or is it just trial amd error?

Any tips appreciated.

I think you understand ETTL correctly.

External flash metering uses a meter outside on the flash, I believe. It is for older cameras and isn't as accurate as ETTL.

As for zoom, I usually set it to 105/200mm, but I use multiple flashes - one on camera and one on the side as key light. So I artificially "wrap" the light.

Submariner wrote in post #18084696
I will have a look at that but does it explain the way the 600 ex rt works?

No, but it covers the basics of lighting off camera, lighting modifiers etc.

I did put a lot of answers in amongst your questions too (in bold)

Echo63 wrote in post #18085197
No, but it covers the basics of lighting off camera, lighting modifiers etc.

I did put a lot of answers in amongst your questions too (in bold)

Hi
Sorry I didnt see your indented answers, somehow on this ipad air I have to scroll down. Much appreciated the time taken to answer , very helpful.

frugivore wrote in post #18084726
Lots of question. I'm far from an expert but I'll try to answer.

If your light sources no longer "wrap around" your subject, but effectively become point sources of light, then yes - lighting will be hard.

It will gain light since the diffusion panel and umbrella material are not absorbing the light.

The meter doesn't know that your light is in a softbox. It sends a test flash, checks to see how much it affected the zones/pixels in the scene, and then increases the power based on the result.

I like to imagine the angles of my light source hitting my subject. If the light source is smaller than my subject and the angle of light is a cone shape, with the tip being the light source, then I am not wrapping light around the subject so I'll get hard light.

If the light source is larger, the cone of light will be inverse and will wrap around the subject, causing "soft" light.

That wouldn't work. Some of the light will just disperse and not hit your subject at all. The rest of the light rays, now less, will still hit your subject at the same angle. Same hard light.

I think you understand ETTL correctly.

External flash metering uses a meter outside on the flash, I believe. It is for older cameras and isn't as accurate as ETTL.

As for zoom, I usually set it to 105/200mm, but I use multiple flashes - one on camera and one on the side as key light. So I artificially "wrap" the light.

Thank younfor taking all the time to give me a lovely useful and very detailed answer
Much appreciated and very useful

Thanks to the above much appreciated detailed replies.
It seems , if i understood properly? if I junk the umbrellas, then the light source will seem harsher.

As I now have 4x 600 ex rts and fire them from the STE 3 commander, would that split firepower give me enough of a "wrap-around" effect to soften the harshness induced by going with out umbrellas?

I do have 2 other Yongnuos 560IIs sort of manual Speedlights, that just trigger off the flash of the 600s
Usually I use these if say doing an outside portrait in woodland scenes, to say light up the background, or fire up against a rock face etc, that say is out of range of the speedlights illuminating the subject.

Echo63 wrote in post #18085197
I did put a lot of answers in amongst your questions too (in bold)

I didn't see that either. But it looks like you said what I said.

Submariner wrote in post #18086328
Thanks to the above much appreciated detailed replies.
It seems , if i understood properly? if I junk the umbrellas, then the light source will seem harsher.

As I now have 4x 600 ex rts and fire them from the STE 3 commander, would that split firepower give me enough of a "wrap-around" effect to soften the harshness induced by going with out umbrellas?

I do have 2 other Yongnuos 560IIs sort of manual Speedlights, that just trigger off the flash of the 600s
Usually I use these if say doing an outside portrait in woodland scenes, to say light up the background, or fire up against a rock face etc, that say is out of range of the speedlights illuminating the subject.

Although I use studio lights for portraits, I have used two 600-EXs shooting into a PLM umbrella with a diffusion panel in the past. To really maximize the light spread, you'd need to have a very large umbrella (I use the 73" version) and move it as close as possible to your subject.

When I shoot people "candidly" and don't have the luxury of dragging around an enormous umbrella, I hold one flash out to the side of the subject's face and another flash mounted on the camera's hot shoe. Both with Demb Flip-its, to effectively raise the light sources a bit higher. But this is really only sufficient to wrap the light around the head or bust of the subject. The light source really needs to be at least as large as the subject. Bouncing small speed lights off walls/ceilings/umbrell​as might create the effect of a larger source, but if the bounced light doesn't reflect in a good pattern, you might end up with bad lighting anyways.

I'll do a few test shots tonight with my speed lights with and without umbrella to see how different they are and post my results here.

frugivore wrote in post #18086616
Although I use studio lights for portraits, I have used two 600-EXs shooting into a PLM umbrella with a diffusion panel in the past. To really maximize the light spread, you'd need to have a very large umbrella (I use the 73" version) and move it as close as possible to your subject.

When I shoot people "candidly" and don't have the luxury of dragging around an enormous umbrella, I hold one flash out to the side of the subject's face and another flash mounted on the camera's hot shoe. Both with Demb Flip-its, to effectively raise the light sources a bit higher. But this is really only sufficient to wrap the light around the head or bust of the subject. The light source really needs to be at least as large as the subject. Bouncing small speed lights off walls/ceilings/umbrell​as might create the effect of a larger source, but if the bounced light doesn't reflect in a good pattern, you might end up with bad lighting anyways.

I'll do a few test shots tonight with my speed lights with and without umbrella to see how different they are and post my results here.

Thanks thats so much appreciated

Here are the two 600EXs bouncing off the PLM umbrella (I had to use the smaller one due to lack of space in the basement):

Here is one of two speedlites with Flip-it! reflector:

frugivore wrote in post #18086765
Here is one of two speedlites with Flip-it! reflector:

Hosted photo: posted by frugivore in
./showthread.php?p=180​86765&i=i20937651
forum: Flash and Studio Lighting

And the result of the two speedlites:

Hosted photo: posted by frugivore in
./showthread.php?p=180​86765&i=i173620280
forum: Flash and Studio Lighting

Wow thanks, thats very useful to see rather than just guess
Actually I quite like both renditions but obvoisly the brolly seems to have a lot softer look .

Where did you get the flip it reflectors from .. Looks useful, especially if the wind is perky

Submariner wrote in post #18087151
Wow thanks, thats very useful to see rather than just guess
Actually I quite like both renditions but obvoisly the brolly seems to have a lot softer look .

Where did you get the flip it reflectors from .. Looks useful, especially if the wind is perky

I like the brolly result better. The drawbacks are that it takes more time to set it up and more pieces to keep track of. And yes - it's near useless once the wind picks up.

The Demb Flip-it with the Mega panel can be purchased from B&H here in NA.

I'm not sure about the UK, but I found some posts as far back as 2009 that the company itself will ship to the UK. Have a look:

http://www.dembflashpr​oducts.com …flip-it-flash-reflectors/

I think I bought these for USD$35 each. They're good quality and fold flat for easy transport. I always use them when shooting weddings.

The double flash method doesn't look as soft, but it's very mobile when shooting just head and shoulder portraits. I think I had the ratio set to 1:4 for master/slave, but maybe I should up it to 1:8 since I'm getting too much light from the front still...