2nd birding/wildlife body - 5DsR or another 7D2?

There's no question that the 1DX has 1EV better DR and also better noise characteristics in the 800-3200 ISO regime where I am most likely to operate while birding. However, it is more expensive, bulkier and most importantly to me, loses the reach that either the crop body or the 5DsR possess. That's what is making me not consider the 1DX as an option.

I think it really comes down to your personal needs/desires.

I thought that the 5Dsr was a "slow" camera until I got my hands on one to try and actually found it to be a fast responding camera with excellent IQ and good AF. The low fps may or may not be an issue. You obviously like your 7D2 (I like mine too!) so have you considered a 7D2 plus? Namely a used 1DX.

A well used 1Dx will still have more (Design) life left in it than the rivals when brand new. Everything that the 7D2 does - the 1DX does better and faster. It produces significantly better IQ than the 7D2 which allows far more cropping so the "Reach" difference is somewhat less than some would have you believe. If you drop it, don't worry about the camera, worry about your foot! Oh yes there is the high ISO to be considered too.

I am running a 1DX and a 7D2 for, mainly, very focal length challenged photography namely small birds! It is rare for me to go for the 7D2 even when struggling to reach with my Canon 800mm and then only if the conditions are ideal - otherwise I am better off with the 1DX. I have found the difference in reach to be small, it is there, but it is not very much and certainly nothing like the crop factor would suggest. After all the 1DX is a Pixel desert, but they are awfully good pixels! Price-wise it is the same or less than a 5Dsr, 10 months ago a friend of mine bought a mint 1DX (2.5K clicks) for £99 less than a 5Dsr is now!

See if you can try one out and see how well it fits your needs - be warned 1 series Canon's are addictive........

Just my thoughts.

John, thanks for your input. You know, people say that all the time, that I can crop the 1DX and I have a hard time with that. Yes, I know that it is a high ISO monster, but no matter how you slice it, you are going to get 18.1/(1.6x1.6) = 7.1 MP on the same scene that the 7D2 puts 20MP on. I don't see how one can objectively claim that a cropped 7.1MP does not lose out to 20MP. I think Teamspeed did an analysis a while back on the 5D3 vs. the 7D and even then, IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PIXELS ON SUBJECT, the 5D3 lost out. Now, if you can fill the frame with the bird, then of course, it's 1DX in a heartbeat, but I am almost never in that situation, which is why the 5DsR has figured prominently in my potential choices.

John's comments regarding the 7D2 vs 1DX are spot on. The crop factor is not nearly the advantage that it would appear to be on paper, the 1DX pixels are just that much better than the 7D2. The 1DX is a clear winner in pretty much every other category as well, with the exception of size/weight. For those reasons the cameras I would be looking at to pair with your existing 7D2 are the 1DX and 5DSR. Assuming you have the money to afford either of those, a second 7D2 wouldn't even be up for consideration. 5DSR gets the nod if you value the resolution above all else, 1DX for speed, build, AF, ISO.

Can *anyone* supply a side by side comparison of an actual bird, with the 7DII and 1Dx, cropped, that can support all of the claims made? It is *really* hard to imagine that an 8MP image rivals a 20MP image, regardless of pixel size.

Paging @Teamspeed!

There is absolutely no way you are resizing an image that is 7Mpx up to the resolution of a 7d2 and end up with an equal result, it won't happen. Now if you add a 1.4x to the 1dx, then crop to the 7d2 view, then the answer might be different.

I did that comparison with a 1d3 and 7d, then a 5d3 and 7d2, in the past. If you are reach limited but want a ff, the 5ds is king of resolution right now. I do sports, so it won't be in my arsenal.

I don't do sports, just birds, so the 5 fps, while not spectacular, may just be enough, if I complement it with my 7D2. Decisions, decisions!

Phoenixkh wrote in post #18113671
I sort of hesitated responding to your post. Having owned both the 7D2 and the ID IV, I can only say.... I still have the ID IV. I don't really consider it older technology only because I've gotten better results from the ID IV than I did the 7D2. I have quite a few birding books and ..... they seem to have one common denominator: the 1D IV. There are so many amazing photographs in them shot with the ID IV. The birding books yet to be published will no doubt be filled with shots from the IDX and IDX ll... as well as the similar Nikon bodies.

You love your 7D2 and that's great. I've seen some excellent photographs posted here taken with it. The only reason I'm commenting at all is to say, there are several reasons why a used ID IV still holds the value it does today.

you may have got better results with the 1D4 but that does not make it the better camera. I tried both before settling on the 7D2, I found both produced pretty much the same image except the 7D2 was less heavy and easier to use. Plus the reach of the 7D2 swayed me, If I need great close ups I use a 5D3. The only reason I see to go for the 1D4 is if you like the heavier body with built in grip or are just more happy with the 1d series camera, loved my 1DIII but no way Id swap it for my 7DII

My 7D2 stopped producing satisfactory results after 10 months. Had that not happened, I'd still be using it. Canon replaced it, but as I was going through the process, I purchased the 1D IV. I preferred the colors with the 1D IV, but I'm not trying to run down the 7D2. I had a lot of fun with it until it malfunctioned.

Phoenixkh wrote in post #18115085
My 7D2 stopped producing satisfactory results after 10 months. Had that not happened, I'd still be using it. Canon replaced it, but as I was going through the process, I purchased the 1D IV. I preferred the colors with the 1D IV, but I'm not trying to run down the 7D2. I had a lot of fun with it until it malfunctioned.

Yes I heard there were a few early released 7D2s with issues, I just got lucky I guess, I think I got mine about two months into the release and never had an issue, but then so far I've never had a camera stuff up on me except for my fuji X100 when the electronic viewfinder broke a bit over a year into using it and Fuji were the best customer service I've come across, fixed the camera, put a whole new lens on and never charged me even though it was out of warranty, took two weeks like I said, guess I've been lucky

Snydremark wrote in post #18114982
Can *anyone* supply a side by side comparison of an actual bird, with the 7DII and 1Dx, cropped, that can support all of the claims made? It is *really* hard to imagine that an 8MP image rivals a 20MP image, regardless of pixel size.

Well I can't and will not try to influence your opinions on this point, however I am more than happy to supply files for you to play with and see what you think. I will use the 1DX and 7D2 on a Canon 800 F5.6 L IS and the subject will be Kingfishers. The subject choice is simply because they use a particular perch so ranges will be within a few inches - probably 1 or 2 inches - allowing a fair comparison and they are very pretty! Settings for ISO, aperture, shutter speed etc will be the same and they will be full RAW files. You may have to educate me on how to get them to you! Sorry I am not very internet savvy and my E Mail provider doesn't seem to like very large files, I am sure there is a way around it.

At this time of year the Kingfishers are not as co-operative as they are in the winter but they are about so it shouldn't take too many trips to get what you are after. Naturally this will involve a fair amount of Petrol (pricey over here) and quite a bit of my time (pretty cheap!). After all a posed shot of an inanimate subject proves nothing, actual shots of a real subject in it's environment tells us what we need to know. So if you are willing to front up the costs then I will oblige ( I am happy to provide my bank account details or send a PayPal invoice) - you can then agree with me or shoot me down in flames - whichever is appropriate.

Alternatively you can do this yourself, I would be interested in your observations. Mine are that there is little reach advantage as well as a number of disadvantages with the smaller sensor camera.

As it stands I own both the 1DX and 7D2 and, if I don't need to be very mobile, guess which I take for small birds? Quite right the 7D2 barely gets a look in, it's the 1DX all the way.

johnf3f wrote in post #18116885
Well I can't and will not try to influence your opinions on this point, however I am more than happy to supply files for you to play with and see what you think. I will use the 1DX and 7D2 on a Canon 800 F5.6 L IS and the subject will be Kingfishers. The subject choice is simply because they use a particular perch so ranges will be within a few inches - probably 1 or 2 inches - allowing a fair comparison and they are very pretty! Settings for ISO, aperture, shutter speed etc will be the same and they will be full RAW files. You may have to educate me on how to get them to you! Sorry I am not very internet savvy and my E Mail provider doesn't seem to like very large files, I am sure there is a way around it.

At this time of year the Kingfishers are not as co-operative as they are in the winter but they are about so it shouldn't take too many trips to get what you are after. Naturally this will involve a fair amount of Petrol (pricey over here) and quite a bit of my time (pretty cheap!). After all a posed shot of an inanimate subject proves nothing, actual shots of a real subject in it's environment tells us what we need to know. So if you are willing to front up the costs then I will oblige ( I am happy to provide my bank account details or send a PayPal invoice) - you can then agree with me or shoot me down in flames - whichever is appropriate.

Alternatively you can do this yourself, I would be interested in your observations. Mine are that there is little reach advantage as well as a number of disadvantages with the smaller sensor camera.

As it stands I own both the 1DX and 7D2 and, if I don't need to be very mobile, guess which I take for small birds? Quite right the 7D2 barely gets a look in, it's the 1DX all the way.

RAW files of the same subject from both cameras would be awesome; a free Dropbox acct is the easiest way to share files like that. PM me and we can discuss particulars.

PM sent.

Going to try and get identical images from both cameras - this may take some time! In the meantime here a couple of early shots from my 7D2. Note there is no sharpening etc, just scaled for web.