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Thread started 19 Sep 2016 (Monday) 08:59
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It is not the gear.

 
aezoss
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Sep 20, 2016 21:20 |  #31

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #18133650 (external link)
My first computer was an Apple MacIntosh Classic. It had a hard drive of 40MB and 4MB of RAM. I loved that little computer but I'm sure glad I don't have to work on it today...

We had one of those bad boys when I was a kid, back when 100MB Zip disks were HUGE for removable media. Beat the pants off the Apple II we had. From green screen to greyscale, those were the days. I don't miss 56Kbps dialup though, that just sucked.

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Sep 20, 2016 21:36 |  #32

aezoss wrote in post #18134983 (external link)
We had one of those bad boys when I was a kid, back when 100MB Zip disks were HUGE for removable media. Beat the pants off the Apple II we had. From green screen to greyscale, those were the days. I don't miss 56Kbps dialup though, that just sucked.

Lee

Flashbacks. First desktop computer I used was an Apple IIgs. That thing was loaded. Coincidentally, also the last Apple product my family owned.

AZGeorge wrote in post #18134514 (external link)
Have I been missing some groundswell of gear shaming/blaming?

It seems to me that, gear limitations notwithstanding, most everyone here knows all to well the most profound limiting factor is found behind camera.

Nobody is gear-shaming, all the equipment in the world can't replace skill.


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Sep 20, 2016 22:38 |  #33

AZGeorge wrote in post #18134514 (external link)
Have I been missing some groundswell of gear shaming/blaming?

It seems to me that, gear limitations notwithstanding, most everyone here knows all to well the most profound limiting factor is found behind camera.

I don't think it looks like shaming/blaming. It looks more like buying/wishing/lusting for that thing which will finally make the difference.

This isn't just a photography thing....


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Sep 21, 2016 04:34 |  #34

Coincidentally Jason Lanier released a video where he discusses this very thing, Gear vs photography Talent and Experience. I think he pretty much nails it. It's a combination of them. Some time ago I watched one of Jerry Ghihonis' videos where he told about winning 3rd or 4th place in WPPA. He shot a wedding using a cellphone camera. His point, it's not the just the gear.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=Fh-q3PTXT3Y (external link)


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aezoss
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Sep 21, 2016 13:38 |  #35

Colorblinded wrote in post #18134998 (external link)
Flashbacks. First desktop computer I used was an Apple IIgs. That thing was loaded.

Amazing machine. Technology in general seemed more fun and inspiring in the '90s and early 2000s. Perhaps it's just nostalgia.

On topic, maybe I missed it but was there no mention of processing in either the Fro or Lanier videos? With today's hardware, processing is often the difference between a good photo and an exceptional photo regardless of equipment. It obviously starts with a well composed and properly exposed frame but all this conversation about equipment leaves out a significant part of the equation.

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Sep 21, 2016 14:31 as a reply to  @ aezoss's post |  #36

filmuser wrote in post #18133588 (external link)
When the old cameras came out people loved the images. Why do they not love those same images now?

Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.


Let's make an analogy to cars. When the cars of the 60's and 70's came out, people loved them. They'd usually get you to work on time (but sweating due to no A/C), you might be able to pick up some AM radio stations if the clouds were right, and there was plenty of room in the back seat for you and your best girl. Today's cars are safer, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are more fuel efficient. The cars of yesteryear would get you to your destination, sure - but you'd get 11mpg, coat the world in smog, and in a head-on collision the steering column would go through your spine. Aside from nostalgia, today's cars are better on all accounts.


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Sep 21, 2016 14:52 |  #37

nathancarter wrote in post #18135748 (external link)
Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.

This is just wrong on so many levels. I rarely see anything today that compares to the passion and vision of Robert Frank . Landscapes that even come close to the work done by Abams and Weston using the zone system and view cameras. A lot of what i see today is sterile, unfeeling images of nouns or as Weston called it the obvious. There are some photographers today that work with real vision and passion but they are usually ones that don't care about much of what you have described. Show me something that can make me feel instead of something that is just sharp. And if sharpness is your only goal a contact print from a 20 X 24 view camera is pretty much unbeatable.




  
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Sep 21, 2016 17:27 |  #38

nathancarter wrote in post #18135748 (external link)
Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.

Let's make an analogy to cars. When the cars of the 60's and 70's came out, people loved them. They'd usually get you to work on time (but sweating due to no A/C), you might be able to pick up some AM radio stations if the clouds were right, and there was plenty of room in the back seat for you and your best girl. Today's cars are safer, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are more fuel efficient. The cars of yesteryear would get you to your destination, sure - but you'd get 11mpg, coat the world in smog, and in a head-on collision the steering column would go through your spine. Aside from nostalgia, today's cars are better on all accounts.


Flawed analogy, aside from the fact that I’d take a ‘57 Corvette (or Bel Air or Thunderbird) almost over anything today...art doesn’t have to worry about safety standards or fuel efficiency...on the contrary. Oh, and on the issue of 'reliability,' my 1934 and 1958 lenses and 1969 camera have proven remarkably reliable, as they will for the rest of my life...say that for digital anything.

Now, I’m going to concede that for some professionals, they will encounter a clientele raised on HD this and that, whereby emphasis on sharpness and clarity may be inflated...I would assume magazine editors are particularly anal. And sure, drones can sneak into areas once inaccessible. But this, of course, does not represent the overall photographic spectrum.

So when looking at photography overall, I must state that I frankly don’t give a good goddamn what people are demanding today...you mean, the same people who have put the Kardashians at the top of our modern culture hierarchy? No, no, our standards have not risen...on the contrary.

Less noise? The only “consumers” who fastidiously give a crap about that are us photography geeks...not to mention that I love film grain. Best color photographers (as in actually using color as a powerful aesthetic tool) stretch back decades, despite advancements in accurate rendering.

Imagines shot from difficult shooting situations...OK, yeah, Capa on Omaha Beach was a piece of cake.

Really, when you reduce past photography as somehow inferior artifacts that thrive mainly off nostalgia and nothing more, then you have invariably reduced the value of all art to chronological fate, dismissing aesthetic, influence, and creativity.

Just to be clear, I don’t like a Rembrandt because his work is nostalgic, and shall we discuss written works from the past?

And by the way, the first time I became aware of Ansel Adams was when his photos (posters & calendars) began to pepper the cubicles of American office workers in the early 1990s. I didn’t know who he was, and it would be more than a decade later, when I actually ‘got into’ photography, that I learned about him.

To my surprise, his photos were NOT from the 1980s, as in contemporary work (remember, this is the early 1990s). No nostalgia factor, and no nostalgia factor when listening to Miles Davis...nothing quaint and anodyne, and certainly nothing, absolutely nothing, inferior compared with today’s offerings.

At various times on different sites, I’ve heard people proudly take iconoclastic positions against the ‘masters,’ and on some level, this is good; nothing is beyond reproach, particularly in a subjective dynamic. But efforts to prove something better, something that relegates those old boring retreads back into the dark recesses of history, have yet to eventuate, so I remain completely unconvinced that our standards are higher.

Said all I need...I'm out, at least for now.


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Sep 21, 2016 18:58 |  #39

I'm generally on the side that gear doesn't matter. At least not in today's context. Historically however there are examples where gear made exceptional differences. Two of the founding members of Magnum - Robert Capa and Henri Cartier-Bresson were huge benefactors of new gear. In the case of Capa he forewent the standard WWII issue Speed Graphic in favour of the Leica 35mm. This allowed him much more maneuverability and far faster shooting. Cartier-Bresson came from an affluent family that afforded hm the opportunity to walk around and capture his decisive moments with a new, expensive piece of technology - again the Leica. An advantage not shared by most of his contemporaries. One could also make the argument that the sheer force of personality of either of these individuals could put an indelible mark on an image from any camera. It isn't the gear and it is the gear. No one can speak in absolutes or other than for themselves.


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Sep 21, 2016 19:23 |  #40

the way i look at gear is as a tool

the end of the day, you've got something in your head that you are trying to accomplish, be it a shot of a flower, shot of a bear, whatever...you're trying to match what's in your head with what the camera puts out

better gear makes it easier in some instances to get that image in your head out of the camera

can you take a close up photo of a flower without a macro lens...yeah of course, but you may need to reverse a lens, or add tubes to get what you want, but it's achievable

can you get a close shot of a bear without a telephoto...yeah, you'll probably have to rig a camera and shoot from afar if you don't want to get too close to the bear, or use a blind, or a tree stand

bottom line is you can achieve a lot of things without the greatest gear, it just requires more work...better gear makes things easier


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Sep 21, 2016 20:13 |  #41

Better gear doesn't need to be defined as the latest and greatest but should be defined as the equipment that best matches the way you see and work whatever that may be.

A couple of quotes that are just as relevant today as they were years ago.

"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it". - Edward Weston

"The camera doesn't make a bit of difference. All of them can record what you are seeing. But, you have to SEE". - Ernst Haas




  
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Sep 22, 2016 15:20 |  #42

nathancarter wrote in post #18135748 (external link)
Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.

Well, over the years I've certainly grown more picky about technical standards, but still not only enjoy but greatly appreciate great shots done with a wide variety of equipment. For me a great shot taken five or twenty or a hundred years ago is still great.

Let's make an analogy to cars. When the cars of the 60's and 70's came out, people loved them. They'd usually get you to work on time (but sweating due to no A/C), you might be able to pick up some AM radio stations if the clouds were right, and there was plenty of room in the back seat for you and your best girl. Today's cars are safer, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are more fuel efficient. The cars of yesteryear would get you to your destination, sure - but you'd get 11mpg, coat the world in smog, and in a head-on collision the steering column would go through your spine. Aside from nostalgia, today's cars are better on all accounts.

I agree wholeheartedly that today's cars are superior to anything produced in the past. But, to extend your analogy, I'd still much rather be enjoying great views on an untraveled road in a '51 Studebaker than being caught gridlock in a 6 Series BMW. Equipment makes a difference to me but the world of other stuff is even more important.


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Sep 22, 2016 16:01 |  #43

I bet Canon were well chuffed with that video coming out days after they gave him a 5D mk IV..........


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Sep 22, 2016 16:13 |  #44
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nathancarter wrote in post #18135748 (external link)
Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.


Let's make an analogy to cars. When the cars of the 60's and 70's came out, people loved them. They'd usually get you to work on time (but sweating due to no A/C), you might be able to pick up some AM radio stations if the clouds were right, and there was plenty of room in the back seat for you and your best girl. Today's cars are safer, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are more fuel efficient. The cars of yesteryear would get you to your destination, sure - but you'd get 11mpg, coat the world in smog, and in a head-on collision the steering column would go through your spine. Aside from nostalgia, today's cars are better on all accounts.

nathancarter wrote in post #18135748 (external link)
Because our standards have risen. Those images are a great reminder of yesteryear, but today's image consumers demand sharper focus, less noise, less motion blur, better color rendering, and images produced in increasingly difficult shooting situations.

Let's make an analogy to cars. When the cars of the 60's and 70's came out, people loved them. They'd usually get you to work on time (but sweating due to no A/C), you might be able to pick up some AM radio stations if the clouds were right, and there was plenty of room in the back seat for you and your best girl. Today's cars are safer, quieter, more reliable, last longer, and are more fuel efficient. The cars of yesteryear would get you to your destination, sure - but you'd get 11mpg, coat the world in smog, and in a head-on collision the steering column would go through your spine. Aside from nostalgia, today's cars are better on all accounts.

Funny how I can still make nice photos with a camera that is nearly 50 years old and has zero automation. People that purchase the photos don't really care what wizbang camera shot the photo...they emotionally hook up with the photo.




  
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Sep 23, 2016 06:20 |  #45

In any endeavor having the right tools for the job matters. I am not in any way athletic, quite the opposite in fact, so this is probably a good as well as a relevant example. As a teenager I was a member of the Air Cadets, and was lucky enough to spend a week at RAF Cosford. The unit had some very good sports facilities, so good in fact that they had at the time just hosted the world indoor athletics championships. Having only ever run on a grass track in trainers when taking part in cadet sports being given the chance to borrow some spikes and run on that world class indoor track was amazing. It turned out that I ran 800m about a minute faster than I had ever done before. Even now over thirty years later I can still remember the feeling of running on that track with the correct equipment. I am also a competitive rifle shooter, and yes I can probably get really good results out of a Daisy Red Rider, It doesn't mean I'm going to turn up at our national championships and shoot one, it's a completely unsuitable tool for that job. In some rifle events a competitive rifle from thirty years ago will still be competitive, in other events you need far more modern equipment because the basic technology has changed, bringing dramatic improvements, pushing the level of results. To the point that rule changes were introduced because what had once been an exceptional world record achievement of shooting a perfect score, was now needed just to win a match at the elite level.

The same applies all over, power tools in wood shops seem to bring on the same sort of discussion from what I gather. It is always going to come down to the fact that as the technology of our tools increases the tools will allow us to get the wanted result either with more certainty of success or in previously impossible situations. In photography none of this will make any of the existing images any less good than they already were. I currently use a 50D, as that is all I can afford to use. I look at some of the latest cameras, especially the 5DS and 5DIV and the 600 F4 L IS II and think that they may well get me better results than I am getting from my 50D and Sigma 150-600 C, what with the improvements in sensor tech and the higher resolving power of the lens when shooting my favorite airshow subjects. A higher keeper rate will allow for pushing the envelope further in what is possible in a usually restricted situation. When I do product photography with fully controlled lighting on the other hand I don't particularly find my 50D to be restrictive, and actually my old 20D is perfectly capable of producing more than acceptable results, considering they are usually destined to be seen only as web images at screen friendly sizes. Of course if I could have the new camera for the difficult subjects, I would still use all of it's possible advantages in the less difficult situations, just like I use the 50D now, not the 20D.

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