Shameful News in OKC

RDKirk wrote in post #18290609
I've learned never to expect anyone to know any of my rules that I have not publicized.

Looking at the website, I see nothing mentioned about commercial photography in the park. They should develop rules and post them on the website. There should be signs at the entrance that alert photographers to go somewhere for literature or a briefing on photography limitations. They may need photographers to get permits--not necessarily paid, but to block out appointed slots to limit the amount of commercial traffic during the day or week.

This is no different from the rules many communities have about commercial photography, and although it's chafing from the viewpoint of a commercial photographer, it may be necessary.

But if all this park has is that hand-printed sign, then they haven't done their own due diligence to make sure their sensitivities are made known.

Ordinarily, yes. But the problem is (or was - the sign has come down) with portrait photographers leaving the trails (or blocking them) and trampling off trail areas. There are plenty of notices about staying on the trails and this park, unlike other city parks, is operated as a nature center. It is well known that public access is limited and wildlife and plant life preservation is it's main purpose.

rgs wrote in post #18291187
Ordinarily, yes. But the problem is (or was - the sign has come down) with portrait photographers leaving the trails (or blocking them) and trampling off trail areas. There are plenty of notices about staying on the trails and this park, unlike other city parks, is operated as a nature center. It is well known that public access is limited and wildlife and plant life preservation is it's main purpose.

I've seen this same issue in a more remote park in the Canadian Rockies. There is a quota of people allowed into the park everyday...you get driven 12km by bus so they restrict the numbers. During the ride up, you are lectured by a ranger how sensitive the area is how to stay on the trails so not to destroy the terrain. Yet, every time up I've seen photographers ignorantly trampling through the terrain off the designated trails to get a better composition. They have been lectured for 20 minutes...there are signs on the trails telling everyone to keep on the trail...yet the ignorant people still think they are above this.

Best practice is to fine the crap out of these people so that maybe things will sink into their skulls.

As a native of OKC and a pro photographer, I'm not at all surprised at the behavior of portrait and family photographers who break the rules to "get the shot". All to often we seem to ignore boundaries that others adhere to. And while we think we're pushing the limits of getting the money shot, we are causing far more harm than good. Seems that once we leave the studio and venture out into the public (or nature), our sense of boundary is blurred....

rgs wrote in post #18291187
Ordinarily, yes. But the problem is (or was - the sign has come down) with portrait photographers leaving the trails (or blocking them) and trampling off trail areas. There are plenty of notices about staying on the trails and this park, unlike other city parks, is operated as a nature center. It is well known that public access is limited and wildlife and plant life preservation is it's main purpose.

If it were that well known and understood there would not need to be a handwritten sign. If there needs to be a handwritten sign, there needs to be more information out front.

Tell people directly and explicitly what you want them to know. More and more, there is less and less likelyhood that other people come from the same background environment of shared understanding. There is a lot less frustration in life if people abandon assumptions that everyone else has the same knowledge and understanding that you have.

If you want to make sure a particular group understands something in a particular way, you directly address than particular group. That's why lots of communities will have specific pages or paragraphs in their websites for photographers.

Words. Using them liberally makes life less frustrating.

RDKirk wrote in post #18291548
If it were that well known and understood there would not need to be a handwritten sign. If there needs to be a handwritten sign, there needs to be more information out front.

Tell people directly and explicitly what you want them to know. More and more, there is less and less likelyhood that other people come from the same background environment of shared understanding. There is a lot less frustration in life if people abandon assumptions that everyone else has the same knowledge and understanding that you have.

If you want to make sure a particular group understands something in a particular way, you directly address than particular group. That's why lots of communities will have specific pages or paragraphs in their websites for photographers.

Words. Using them liberally makes life less frustrating.

I agree that the rules need to be clear and known by all...but my experience shows many people don't believe these rules apply to them. I've seen this everywhere in daily life.

Hogloff wrote in post #18291572
I agree that the rules need to be clear and known by all...but my experience shows many people don't believe these rules apply to them. I've seen this everywhere in daily life.

Well, of course that's true or prisons would be empty.

But making the rules clearly known up front actually gives the rest of society a foundation for social enforcement of those rules.

I've been in the position before of being expected to enforce rules that the powers-that-be never had the guts to actually promulgate, so that it appeared I was merely pulling rules out of my fanny. That sucks.

RDKirk wrote in post #18291548
If it were that well known and understood there would not need to be a handwritten sign. If there needs to be a handwritten sign, there needs to be more information out front.

Tell people directly and explicitly what you want them to know. More and more, there is less and less likelyhood that other people come from the same background environment of shared understanding. There is a lot less frustration in life if people abandon assumptions that everyone else has the same knowledge and understanding that you have.

If you want to make sure a particular group understands something in a particular way, you directly address than particular group. That's why lots of communities will have specific pages or paragraphs in their websites for photographers.

Words. Using them liberally makes life less frustrating.

Which presumes that people will always do as they are told. Did you ever have children? Teach school? Or work with someone who saw themselves as so special or such an artist or so entitled that they needn't follow the rules that normal people do? As I said, the place is NOT a normal city park. It's Martin NATURE Park. It's purpose is clear and there are plenty of signs telling visitors to stay on the trails, respect the animals and their home, and other behaviors that would not be restricted in other parks. And there are other parks that are frequently used as outdoor portrait sets. It is, in fact, the wild, unkempt nature of Martin Park that these photographers, and their subjects, like. So they disrespect the rules because they are "artists" for whom other rules must surely apply. It has nothing do do with ignorance of rules - some of these guys have even been issued tickets because of the egregious nature of their violations.

Unenforced rules are just rules for others to follow. Trust me, I live in Seattle, where Discovery park has had it's wildlife abused by off leash dogs because the city doesn't have the nads to ticket and fine heavily.

rgs wrote in post #18291750
Which presumes that people will always do as they are told. Did you ever have children? Teach school? Or work with someone who saw themselves as so special or such an artist or so entitled that they needn't follow the rules that normal people do? As I said, the place is NOT a normal city park. It's Martin NATURE Park. It's purpose is clear and there are plenty of signs telling visitors to stay on the trails, respect the animals and their home, and other behaviors that would not be restricted in other parks. And there are other parks that are frequently used as outdoor portrait sets. It is, in fact, the wild, unkempt nature of Martin Park that these photographers, and their subjects, like. So they disrespect the rules because they are "artists" for whom other rules must surely apply. It has nothing do do with ignorance of rules - some of these guys have even been issued tickets because of the egregious nature of their violations.

Let me make sure I understand your position. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to be arguing that there should not be any signs or any website information giving specific information about specific issues and problems. You seem to be arguing that there should not be a "Commercial Photographers" section on the website...just in case there might be someone who would follow the rules if they were clearly spelled out. Is that correct?

Because I'm arguing that expectations ought to be clearly set out in writing--the same way I'd set out expectations in a contract with a wedding or portrait client. You seem to be arguing against the proposition of actually saying explicitly: "We don't want you to do that."

Local parks around here make you sign up for a permit. Before getting the permit, you are given a list of the rules, acknowledge that you have been given and read via signature and then your permit is issued. You are also told if you break the rules, you'll lose all privilege of shooting there. And they are serious!

The second you break out a light stand they want to verify your permit. Natural light a little harder.

Sounds like your park might want to start doing the same.

kickmaster wrote in post #18291329
As a native of OKC and a pro photographer, I'm not at all surprised at the behavior of portrait and family photographers who break the rules to "get the shot". All to often we seem to ignore boundaries that others adhere to. And while we think we're pushing the limits of getting the money shot, we are causing far more harm than good. Seems that once we leave the studio and venture out into the public (or nature), our sense of boundary is blurred....

Well, perhaps a flashmob visit to the photographers studio by folk in their trail walking gear (especially the dirty boots) to restore the tog's sense of civic responsiblity !

PS Such 'abuse' of public areas puts me in mind of folk that wilfully drop litter out of their cars despoiling the likes of the countryside or the city environment. And in many countries there are by-laws and regulations against that but too few perpetrators get fined or taken to court

PPS as a PoTN member from the old world side of the pond I fear, reading about your new administration, that the changes to Park Authority (sorry if I misname it) will only make things worse for you folks. NB We have our own issues here with growing loss of Green Belt to house building demands.

Box Brownie wrote in post #18292539
PPS as a PoTN member from the old world side of the pond I fear, reading about your new administration, that the changes to Park Authority (sorry if I misname it) will only make things worse for you folks. NB We have our own issues here with growing loss of Green Belt to house building demands.

Uh, the uber liberal government in Seattle has done next to nothing to enforce the leash laws, camping laws, and littering laws. Same holds true in Portland Oregon and other major US cities.

RDKirk wrote in post #18292356
Let me make sure I understand your position. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to be arguing that there should not be any signs or any website information giving specific information about specific issues and problems. You seem to be arguing that there should not be a "Commercial Photographers" section on the website...just in case there might be someone who would follow the rules if they were clearly spelled out. Is that correct?

Because I'm arguing that expectations ought to be clearly set out in writing--the same way I'd set out expectations in a contract with a wedding or portrait client. You seem to be arguing against the proposition of actually saying explicitly: "We don't want you to do that."

You seem to be unable or unwilling to understand that this park is a nature preserve and that rules for all are posted. Photographers are no exception and anyone who thinks that, because he is a photographer, he is entitled to violate otherwise posted rules is a problem and makes us all look bad. Insisting that photographers need their own set of rules or they are free to violate the park rules and plead ignorance is adolescent reasoning at best. Sorry. Common sense applies and "artistic entitlement" does not.

rgs wrote in post #18293604
You seem to be unable or unwilling to understand that this park is a nature preserve and that rules for all are posted. Photographers are no exception and anyone who thinks that, because he is a photographer, he is entitled to violate otherwise posted rules is a problem and makes us all look bad. Insisting that photographers need their own set of rules or they are free to violate the park rules and plead ignorance is adolescent reasoning at best. Sorry. Common sense applies and "artistic entitlement" does not.

Totally agree. Same rules if I'm walking a dog or I'm photographing a senior. Don't need anything special here.

rgs wrote in post #18293604
You seem to be unable or unwilling to understand that this park is a nature preserve and that rules for all are posted. Photographers are no exception and anyone who thinks that, because he is a photographer, he is entitled to violate otherwise posted rules is a problem and makes us all look bad. Insisting that photographers need their own set of rules or they are free to violate the park rules and plead ignorance is adolescent reasoning at best. Sorry. Common sense applies and "artistic entitlement" does not.

Well, I guess it all depends on whether one wants to take all positive steps to reduce unwanted actions as much as possible or merely bristle in feckless indignation.

Notice that the park did put up another sign, albeit handwritten. They did post more information directed at photographers, and that fact means they needed to have posted that same information permanently much earlier.