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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 03 Nov 2016 (Thursday) 15:18
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Struggling on a mirrorless camera.. Which one?

 
Hogloff
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Nov 05, 2016 11:48 |  #31
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mickeyb105 wrote in post #18176521 (external link)
Batteries for the a6x00 and a7 series are light, small and pretty inexpensive.

Keeping size and weight down is easier with the Gen 1 A7 and A7R. Tough to beat the pure IQ at that size, coupled with an FE28, FE35 or FE55.

The size and weight of the A7R with those 3 lenses cannot be touched when it comes to image quality if you want a compact system. Sure you can go crop...or better yet micro...but you are giving up image quality which I personally don't want to do.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 05, 2016 12:03 |  #32
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Here are some great Sony / Zeiss lenses that can make a compact small kit when coupled with the A7R / A6000:


Loxia 21mm 394g.
Batis 18mm 330g.
Batis 25mm 335g.
Loxia 35mm 340g.
Batis 85mm 475g.
Sony 55mm 281g.
Sony 35mm 120g.
Sony 28mm 200g.

So you see, if you really wanted, you can go very light with a full frame Sony.




  
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Nov 05, 2016 12:03 |  #33

Hogloff wrote in post #18176580 (external link)
Sure you can pull the heavy 2.8 zooms out of the hat...they weigh a lot and I'd never travel with them...no matter what camera I had. You can get light and compact with a Sony full frame system if you want...that cannot be done with a DSLR system. I have both and tried both and the Sony system is capable of light compact travel...not my 5D2..


Why is everyone so hung up about comparing two f/2.8 zooms?!

OK ordinary ASP-C coverage snapshooter zooms from both Canon and Sony...

  • 18-55mm f/3.5 Sony, 7.9 oz, 71.6mmD x 69mmL
  • 18-55mm f/3.5 Canon STM, 7.4 oz, 61.2mmD x 65.8mmL


Sony is heavier by 0.5 oz, and is 10.4mm fatter and 3.2mm longer.

So much for the so-called advantage in 'light and compact'. Sure, the body is nice and small and light (a7r vs. 6D is 130g difference or 4.6 oz.), but if you use the same FL to cover the same sensor size, FL is FL and you cannot defeat physics to a great degree.

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Charlie
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Nov 05, 2016 12:17 |  #34

Wilt wrote in post #18176592 (external link)
Why is everyone so hung up on comparing two f/2.8 zooms?!

OK ordinary ASP-C coverage snapshooter zooms from both Canon and Sony...

  • 18-55mm f/3.5 Sony, 7.9 oz, 71.6mmD x 69mmL
  • 18-55mm f/3.5 Canon STM, 7.4 oz, 61.2mmD x 65.8mmL


Sony is heavier by 0.5 oz, and is 10.4mm fatter and 3.2mm longer.

So much for the so-called advantage in 'light and compact'. Sure, the body is nice and small and light (a7r vs. 6D is 130g difference or 4.6 oz.), but if you use the same FL to cover the same sensor size, FL is FL and you cannot defeat physics to a great degree.

Wilt, I went to breakfast with my family this morning with my point and shoot A7rii +35f2.8 clipped to my belt. Most of the time, that's all I bring. What other combo can get close to that image quality and size?

Size advantage is there, 6D alone can't fit my bag.


Sony A7siii/A7iv/ZV-1 - FE 24/1.4 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 - 28-200 RXD
Panasonic GH6 - Laowa 7.5/2 - PL 15/1.7 - P 42.5/1.8 - OM 75/1.8 - PL 10-25/1.7 - P 12-32 - P 14-140

  
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Trvlr323
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Nov 05, 2016 13:20 |  #35

Charlie wrote in post #18176596 (external link)
Wilt, I went to breakfast with my family this morning with my point and shoot A7rii +35f2.8 clipped to my belt. Most of the time, that's all I bring. What other combo can get close to that image quality and size?

Size advantage is there, 6D alone can't fit my bag.

I think the issue of size is very personal. Some find it a huge advantage and for others it is a fail ergonomically. I know for myself when I'm outside at -30C mirrorless isn't an option. I just can't feel my way around the camera with gloves on. I also travel a lot with DSLR and I've often met people shooting mirrorless who are carrying twice as much kit as me. For some the tendency with space/weight saved is to add more. For some of my travels I purposely cut down my kit and generally I find that limiting my choices ends up giving me better results. I think the moral of the story is that no one can speak to any advantage in this game unless they are referring to themselves personally. You just can't speak in global absolutes. Different needs is the very reason why different systems exist.

I find image quality a bit of a different story. I don't think anyone would argue that any of the cameras mentioned in this thread enjoy significant advantages over any camera produced in the times of our parents or grandparents. Yet, most of the best known images have come from those old cameras cameras many now consider relics of the past so the comparisons about modern DSLR and mirrorless cameras are really moot. We are beyond the point of charts, graphs and the likes of DXOMark. It matters little. If history has proven anything it is that image quality is the responsibility of the photographer, not the camera and it holds true more now than ever. Everyone is arguing over some of the finest choices any photographer has had the luxury to make. Pick one. Try it. Doesn't work? Next. It's all good.


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Hogloff
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Nov 05, 2016 14:21 |  #36
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nqjudo wrote in post #18176632 (external link)
I think the issue of size is very personal. Some find it a huge advantage and for others it is a fail ergonomically. I know for myself when I'm outside at -30C mirrorless isn't an option. I just can't feel my way around the camera with gloves on. I also travel a lot with DSLR and I've often met people shooting mirrorless who are carrying twice as much kit as me. For some the tendency with space/weight saved is to add more. For some of my travels I purposely cut down my kit and generally I find that limiting my choices ends up giving me better results. I think the moral of the story is that no one can speak to any advantage in this game unless they are referring to themselves personally. You just can't speak in global absolutes. Different needs is the very reason why different systems exist.

I find image quality a bit of a different story. I don't think anyone would argue that any of the cameras mentioned in this thread enjoy significant advantages over any camera produced in the times of our parents or grandparents. Yet, most of the best known images have come from those old cameras cameras many now consider relics of the past so the comparisons about modern DSLR and mirrorless cameras are really moot. We are beyond the point of charts, graphs and the likes of DXOMark. It matters little. If history has proven anything it is that image quality is the responsibility of the photographer, not the camera and it holds true more now than ever. Everyone is arguing over some of the finest choices any photographer has had the luxury to make. Pick one. Try it. Doesn't work? Next. It's all good.

I agree with your view that weight and bulk are a personal preference...but I don't agree with your views on image quality. I see a very apparent difference between micro sensors, crop sensors and full frame sensors..especially when making large prints. I even see these differences between different full frame sensors with the Sony sensors allowing my images to be further manipulated than the images from the 5d2.

If all people do is display their images on their monitors...then any camera today will do. The big equalizer is the display medium...but if you are making fine art prints from your images...the sensor and thus camera matter.




  
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Charlie
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Nov 05, 2016 14:42 |  #37

nqjudo wrote in post #18176632 (external link)
I think the issue of size is very personal. Some find it a huge advantage and for others it is a fail ergonomically. I know for myself when I'm outside at -30C mirrorless isn't an option. I just can't feel my way around the camera with gloves on. I also travel a lot with DSLR and I've often met people shooting mirrorless who are carrying twice as much kit as me. For some the tendency with space/weight saved is to add more. For some of my travels I purposely cut down my kit and generally I find that limiting my choices ends up giving me better results. I think the moral of the story is that no one can speak to any advantage in this game unless they are referring to themselves personally. You just can't speak in global absolutes. Different needs is the very reason why different systems exist.

I find image quality a bit of a different story. I don't think anyone would argue that any of the cameras mentioned in this thread enjoy significant advantages over any camera produced in the times of our parents or grandparents. Yet, most of the best known images have come from those old cameras cameras many now consider relics of the past so the comparisons about modern DSLR and mirrorless cameras are really moot. We are beyond the point of charts, graphs and the likes of DXOMark. It matters little. If history has proven anything it is that image quality is the responsibility of the photographer, not the camera and it holds true more now than ever. Everyone is arguing over some of the finest choices any photographer has had the luxury to make. Pick one. Try it. Doesn't work? Next. It's all good.

Lets not deviate too far from the topic, -30C..... I dont know a single person that's been in that type of extreme weather. Pretty sure family outings are very limited there.

On topic of Mirrorless users carrying more than needed....... there's a blessing and a curse in disguise. Blessing is that small options exist and are great. Curse is that you may be compelled to carry more than needed. Go to the FM forums, many are cursed with too much gear and mental wrestling. The curse is having too many options, which isnt technically a bad thing if you have restraint.

Global absolutes, is like pointing to an article that says Sony's fatal mistake article :-)

As far as image quality, who doesnt want the best for the least amount of money? This board caters to those who want high image quality, I didnt go out to spend 3K for average IQ. Trying to say that it's all about the photographer, then we might as well all shoot cell phones. Buying high end Fuji primes..... isnt the purpose of that to maximize image quality?


Sony A7siii/A7iv/ZV-1 - FE 24/1.4 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 - 28-200 RXD
Panasonic GH6 - Laowa 7.5/2 - PL 15/1.7 - P 42.5/1.8 - OM 75/1.8 - PL 10-25/1.7 - P 12-32 - P 14-140

  
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bobbyz
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Nov 05, 2016 14:55 |  #38

Hogloff wrote in post #18176467 (external link)
I make large prints and have used the XT system for a bit...prints max out at 20x24. Now thats fine for most...not for me. If all you shoot is to make an occasional print but mostly post on the net then even the Fuji is too big...get the Olympus as you won't see any image quality difference...but will notice a weight / bulk difference.

A friend of mine who prints big, I am really big used to use Hassalblad 40M digital back when they just came out. I think most folks were using 30d at the time. It is all relative IMHO. For me 5dmk2 can do what I shoot with just 1 AF point.

Olympus nice but not as nice as Fuji IMHO.


Fuji XT-1, 18-55mm
Sony A7rIV, , Tamron 28-200mm, Sigma 40mm f1.4 Art FE, Sony 85mm f1.8 FE, Sigma 105mm f1.4 Art FE
Fuji GFX50s, 23mm f4, 32-64mm, 45mm f2.8, 110mm f2, 120mm f4 macro
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Trvlr323
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Nov 05, 2016 15:45 |  #39

Charlie wrote in post #18176679 (external link)
Lets not deviate too far from the topic, -30C..... I dont know a single person that's been in that type of extreme weather. Pretty sure family outings are very limited there.

On topic of Mirrorless users carrying more than needed....... there's a blessing and a curse in disguise. Blessing is that small options exist and are great. Curse is that you may be compelled to carry more than needed. Go to the FM forums, many are cursed with too much gear and mental wrestling. The curse is having too many options, which isnt technically a bad thing if you have restraint.

Global absolutes, is like pointing to an article that says Sony's fatal mistake article :-)

As far as image quality, who doesnt want the best for the least amount of money? This board caters to those who want high image quality, I didnt go out to spend 3K for average IQ. Trying to say that it's all about the photographer, then we might as well all shoot cell phones. Buying high end Fuji primes..... isnt the purpose of that to maximize image quality?

Hey Charlie (excuse my English BTW). Any nature/wildlife photographer who lives in a northern climate has been there. I'm there several times a week from December to March. I was in Hokkaido 2 years ago. -50 every morning and there were TONS of photogs out. Cold weather performance was one of many reasons I turned away from Sony.

On image quality what you say about IQ/cost, etc. points to what is basically the problem with these gear wars and even deeper into certain things in our society. I don't know what it is but everyone wants the best, most capable, multi-purpose, bang for the buck, etc. etc., etc. 100% benefit of everything from every purchase. We're fed a lot of stuff from a very young age that tells the thing we have doesn't make us happy but the next, newest thing will. That's primarily why we have so many gear wars, consumer angst and indecision about gear on the forum. How many times have we seen upgrade threads on the forum where people basically say there isn't anything wrong with their gear performance-wise but they're just tired or bored of using it? That's complete lunacy to me. The most important thing I've learnt about gear vs gear arguments on this and other forums came from watching people who actually switched brands. Canon to Nikon and back, DSLR to mirrorless and back, etc. The only difference I ever noticed in any of it was the disposition of their posts. I never saw it make any difference in their photography. Good photographers remained good and those who are mediocre remained so regardless of what they shoot. A newer, fancier camera goes much further in helping the maker appease shareholders than it goes toward making you a better photographer. Buying expensive primes, etc. goes toward our perception of what better image quality is but we're a particular bunch here. It doesn't necessarily appeal to the masses. I put together a photographic memorial recently that included everything from old 35mm B&W to fine art prints from modern DSLR. I never heard one peep about IQ. People were just happy they existed. To be honest, people were most fascinated with the Polaroids which certainly made me stop and think a little. As for your comment about cell phone photography there are people out there doing very well for themselves with phone photography. Selling prints, running workshops, licensing images and getting a lot of enviable exposure. I think the example isn't a strong one on your part. In closing I'll say again that whatever each of us thinks about gear, IQ, etc. is all valid but only for ourselves.


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Strick
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Nov 05, 2016 15:56 |  #40

A couple things in these threads that always makes me ask questions to myself.

In the early days of digital did no one print "big"? I would say that is not the case and no one ever seemed seemed to notice the lack of pixels, high ISO issues, and other things that always get mentioned now.

the Second is IQ and this is the harder one. First of all it is subjective, secondly you can't say that IQ means everything to you with out saying what criteria you use. Is it DOF (that always seems to be the biggest), sharpness, resolution, noise, DR, ...etc...?

Third, and I mean no offense by this, it is always the owner of a bigger sensor camera comparing it to a smaller sensor camera that says this but then says something like..."it is close enough to "FF" for me". And those that say they want the ultimate in image quality so that is why they use a FF camera......why don't you have a medium format model and will you be investing in the new Fuji?

Personally I love my Oly gear and find the IQ to be excellent. I also have Canon gear that I also like. To me the deciding factor, epecially for personal and/or travel use is ease of use. I find my e-m1 to be much easier to use and operate and gives me functions that the Canon can't. This makes getting shots easier, and also makes it easier to be more creative. Sure size is a huge benefit but for everyday use, if a DSLR would offer the same feature set that I get in my E-M1 I would probably use it more.


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Trvlr323
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Nov 05, 2016 16:08 |  #41

Hogloff wrote in post #18176672 (external link)
I agree with your view that weight and bulk are a personal preference...but I don't agree with your views on image quality. I see a very apparent difference between micro sensors, crop sensors and full frame sensors..especially when making large prints. I even see these differences between different full frame sensors with the Sony sensors allowing my images to be further manipulated than the images from the 5d2.

If all people do is display their images on their monitors...then any camera today will do. The big equalizer is the display medium...but if you are making fine art prints from your images...the sensor and thus camera matter.

You are taking the line that that is your subjective opinion so I can't really argue with that. If it is right for you that's pretty much it so the following is just my view. I'm not opposing you at all. I met with famous NY food photographer Lou Manna a couple of times and we spoke about print size, resolution, etc a lot. At the time he had a two storey high billboard near Times Square that was (if my memory serves) made from an original image that was about 2 megabytes. It was upscaled but I think the final print resolution was about 40 DPI. Just like a camera there are different solutions for different problems. Not all requirements are the same. How many of us really need big prints? I print off one image from every trip but even my best images never go bigger than 24x36. I'm not a commercial photographer and my present gear far exceeds my requirements and I'm almost certainly in the majority.

As for manipulating files that is a personal preference. The Sony is great for that but I can attest that the 5D4 has closed the gap for practical purposes. Personally I think every good photographer understands the need for shadow in an image. I find it a little unfortunate when I peruse the galleries of cameras with very high DR sensors and all I see is everyone pushing out all the shadows, making everything look like a one shot HDR. We have been at the point of diminishing returns for DR for a while now. It is another useless tech war designed to separate us from our savings. Shadows are so important to an image and just because we have the ability to rid an image of them with a high DR sensor doesn't mean we should. Edward Steichen was quoted as saying 'I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself—mysterious and ever-changing light with its accompanying shadows rich and full of mystery.'. I'm pretty sure the man knew something about good imagery.


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Hogloff
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Nov 05, 2016 16:13 |  #42
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Strick wrote in post #18176715 (external link)
A couple things in these threads that always makes me ask questions to myself.

In the early days of digital did no one print "big"? I would say that is not the case and no one ever seemed seemed to notice the lack of pixels, high ISO issues, and other things that always get mentioned now.

the Second is IQ and this is the harder one. First of all it is subjective, secondly you can't say that IQ means everything to you with out saying what criteria you use. Is it DOF (that always seems to be the biggest), sharpness, resolution, noise, DR, ...etc...?

Third, and I mean no offense by this, it is always the owner of a bigger sensor camera comparing it to a smaller sensor camera that says this but then says something like..."it is close enough to "FF" for me". And those that say they want the ultimate in image quality so that is why they use a FF camera......why don't you have a medium format model and will you be investing in the new Fuji?

Personally I love my Oly gear and find the IQ to be excellent. I also have Canon gear that I also like. To me the deciding factor, epecially for personal and/or travel use is ease of use. I find my e-m1 to be much easier to use and operate and gives me functions that the Canon can't. This makes getting shots easier, and also makes it easier to be more creative. Sure size is a huge benefit but for everyday use, if a DSLR would offer the same feature set that I get in my E-M1 I would probably use it more.

How big do you print your photos. If not big...how can you even be qualified to criticize people that do print big and yes we have seen a difference in the quality of these large prints in the last 5 years. As far as medium format is concerned, there are a couple of big roadblocks that need removing before that format is usable and those are price and the availability of a more range of lenses.

If you love your micro sensor system and it does everything you want...then that's great for you. Can you accept that some people like the larger full frame systems for their image qualities and abilities to make large prints. I personally shoot a full array of cameras ranging from Fuji 6x9 medium format, Tachihara 4x5 large format to Fuji X100 and Sony A7R as well as Canon 5d2 and 7d...each used different types of photography under different conditions.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 05, 2016 16:21 |  #43
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nqjudo wrote in post #18176722 (external link)
You are taking the line that that is your subjective opinion so I can't really argue with that. If it is right for you that's pretty much it so the following is just my view. I'm not opposing you at all. I met with famous NY food photographer Lou Manna a couple of times and we spoke about print size, resolution, etc a lot. At the time he had a two storey high billboard near Times Square that was (if my memory serves) made from an original image that was about 2 megabytes. It was upscaled but I think the final print resolution was about 40 DPI. Just like a camera there are different solutions for different problems. Not all requirements are the same. How many of us really need big prints? I print off one image from every trip but even my best images never go bigger than 24x36. I'm not a commercial photographer and my present gear far exceeds my requirements and I'm almost certainly in the majority.

As for manipulating files that is a personal preference. The Sony is great for that but I can attest that the 5D4 has closed the gap for practical purposes. Personally I think every good photographer understands the need for shadow in an image. I find it a little unfortunate when I peruse the galleries of cameras with very high DR sensors and all I see is everyone pushing out all the shadows, making everything look like a one shot HDR. We have been at the point of diminishing returns for DR for a while now. It is another useless tech war designed to separate us from our savings. Shadows are so important to an image and just because we have the ability to rid an image of them with a high DR sensor doesn't mean we should. Edward Steichen was quoted as saying 'I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself—mysterious and ever-changing light with its accompanying shadows rich and full of mystery.'. I'm pretty sure the man knew something about good imagery.

Yes the 5d4 is quite impressive, but that's hardly a nice compact mirrorless camera now is it? As far ad DR goes, I shoot a lot of landscapes and DR is always an issue that I traditionally tackled with either GND filters or merging multiple exposures, both of which are troublesome under certain conditions. With the new cameras, especially with Sony sensors, I have more leeway with DR and have reduced the need for GND filters by at least 50%, maybe more. That to me is progress as it allows me more time to focus on the light and composition and less on filters or multiple exposures.

Its very analogous to the need for flash becoming obsolete with the improvements of high ISO. Now instead of screwing around with flash setting, you just bump the ISO and focus in the viewfinder rather than the flash. It's liberating...just like the reduction of needing GND filters is liberating.




  
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Strick
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Nov 05, 2016 16:35 |  #44

Hogloff wrote in post #18176730 (external link)
How big do you print your photos. If not big...how can you even be qualified to criticize people that do print big and yes we have seen a difference in the quality of these large prints in the last 5 years. As far as medium format is concerned, there are a couple of big roadblocks that need removing before that format is usable and those are price and the availability of a more range of lenses.

If you love your micro sensor system and it does everything you want...then that's great for you. Can you accept that some people like the larger full frame systems for their image qualities and abilities to make large prints. I personally shoot a full array of cameras ranging from Fuji 6x9 medium format, Tachihara 4x5 large format to Fuji X100 and Sony A7R as well as Canon 5d2 and 7d...each used different types of photography under different conditions.

No need to get defensive. I am not sure where you read that I criticized people that print big. I asked what did they do before 36mp sensors? Did they have people view those prints and make comments that indicated the lack of pixels, DR, increased ISO? I bet I know the answer.

Also I didn't criticize anyone that has a different camera or sensor size. If that is what works for them, cool. I did question the "IQ over everything" response. I guess my real point is I would rather have a quality image over just image quality. Get the gear that enables you to do that but having the view that is all dependent on sensor size is misguided.


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Wilt
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Nov 05, 2016 16:44 |  #45

Strick wrote in post #18176715 (external link)
A couple things in these threads that always makes me ask questions to myself.

In the early days of digital did no one print "big"? I would say that is not the case and no one ever seemed seemed to notice the lack of pixels, high ISO issues, and other things that always get mentioned now.

the Second is IQ and this is the harder one. First of all it is subjective, secondly you can't say that IQ means everything to you with out saying what criteria you use. Is it DOF (that always seems to be the biggest), sharpness, resolution, noise, DR, ...etc...?

Third, and I mean no offense by this, it is always the owner of a bigger sensor camera comparing it to a smaller sensor camera that says this but then says something like..."it is close enough to "FF" for me". And those that say they want the ultimate in image quality so that is why they use a FF camera......why don't you have a medium format model and will you be investing in the new Fuji?

Personally I love my Oly gear and find the IQ to be excellent. I also have Canon gear that I also like. To me the deciding factor, epecially for personal and/or travel use is ease of use. I find my e-m1 to be much easier to use and operate and gives me functions that the Canon can't. This makes getting shots easier, and also makes it easier to be more creative. Sure size is a huge benefit but for everyday use, if a DSLR would offer the same feature set that I get in my E-M1 I would probably use it more.

It is a misfortune that it is so very easy to view 100% on your monitor, and fail to understand that is equivalent to viewing the original FF or APS-C image at 70X, which is an absurd thing to be doing! One can pixel peep until your eyes blur, and compare this year's camera vs. last year's camera critically, at an absurd magnification. That ability is what drives folks. That (absurd magnification), or underexposing a shot by -5EV and trying to rescue the exposure in post processing WITHOUT NOISE, and complaining about it when any appears! In the days of film, one was pleased with a +2EV push; digital ingrates.


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