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Thread started 10 Dec 2016 (Saturday) 18:25
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Can lenses get much better??

 
Wilt
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Post edited over 6 years ago by Wilt. (8 edits in all)
     
Dec 23, 2016 11:51 |  #91

This thread has spun off into the weeds with discussion of 'focus at Hyperfocal' vs. 'focus at Infinity' debate. Really, one has to ask yourself "What is the PRIMARY point of the photograph?" And shoot to achieve that goal

  • Photograph whose primary subject (your wife) is photographed in 'a setting' which you want to be equally important as your subject
  • Photograph whose primary subject IS the background, but you also want to capture the foreground well enough


But I thought I would take advantage of the 'backgroud blur' graphs to see what it does with an object at Infinity, to determine how each approach affects the outcome (as described above).
Let's first look at the facts of the alternatives. Assuming I was photographing with a 100mm lens at f/11, so that the background item was not too diminished (as would happen with WA lens) but the 'compression' effect of a telephoto helps 'bring forward' the background so it is more prominent in the photo. If my wife was standing 100' away, she would take up 20% of the frame height, and the background item, a 2400' tall peak with an observatory on top 2 miles away, would virtually fill the frame height and I would see a 2400x3600' area at 10000' away.
(Note: all the following calculations assume 20/20 vision of the viewer)


  1. Hyperfocal is 550' away, when focused at 550' yields DOF zone of 140' to Infinity
  2. If my subject (wife) is standing 100' away, DOF zone is from 85' - 122' when focused at 100'.
  3. When I focus at Infinity, my DOF zone is 279' to Infinity


Focus at 100'
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Principles/100ft_zpsvzg8h2jc.png
My wife is in perfect focus, and the mountain and observatory are very slightly blurred (blur = 0.13)

Next, with Focus at 550'
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Principles/550ft_zpsoqhty7nv.jpg
My wife is technically outside the Depth of Field zone where she would be perceived as sharp! The mountain and observatory are very very slightly blurred (blur = 0.022)

Finally, with Focus at Infinity
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Principles/Infinity_zpsghbum2kx.jpg
My wife is well outside the DOF zone, but the mountain and observatory are sharp (blur = virtually 0.0000). But since my wife is IN FRONT of the plane of focus, I do not have a graph to quantify her blur. Instead I will need to resort to an example photo (later)

So of the three approaches
#1 is the only solution if I need my wife to be sharp, yet the mountain and observatory are sharp enough to be very well discerned.
#2 fails to capture my wife sharp enough although the mountain and observatory are acceptably sharp (theoretically)
#3 gets only the background in fine focus, in theory. But here is a photo, focused at Infinity and the house across the street from me is about 100' to its front door...

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Principles/IMG_1211_zpsfjbkoeyf.jpg


This test appears to show that even with a subject at 100', focus at Infinity is not necessarily a bad thing! If my wife is recognizable, and the observatory and mountain are of significance, it seems the focus at Infinity works well enough that my wife is still recognizable in the photo, even if not 'acceptably' sharp to a viewer with 20/20 vision. After all, the 'manufacturer standard' DOF zone says 114' to Infinity is 'in focus'!


Now, back to the OP topic...unless you intend to make really HUGE enlargements with 100 Megapixel cameras, just maybe the 'better lenses than we have today' are money wasting engineering efforts to design and build, that you and I cannot afford to buy! After all, the most recent lenses from Canon seem to be $3000+ (except for the inexpensive line of STM)

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Dec 23, 2016 12:52 |  #92

I look at optics/camera like the Ghz/cpu thing that happened over the past 20yrs.

We had a large Ghz war... the race was on to 4+ghz similar to optics sharpness and I think we have reached that with many glass these days...

now the race to 12+ cores and more channels of bandwidth is what is driving the cpu war and I relate that to sensor technology.

Many many many more improvements to be made with dynamic range, sensor induced noise, color, etc... that will sustain our current optics through the next 10-15 years.

sensory technology is really taking off in a unpredictable way... in 10yrs things will be really outstanding. Everyone will be on 6th generation sensors while canon will be on their 2nd :rolleyes:


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Post edited over 6 years ago by CheshireCat.
     
Dec 23, 2016 16:07 |  #93

Talley wrote in post #18221738 (external link)
We had a large Ghz war... the race was on to 4+ghz similar to optics sharpness and I think we have reached that with many glass these days...

Well.. with the big difference that optics sharpness directly affects resolving power, while GHz do not directly affect computing power :)

Computing power is never enough, yet many people said "oh, no one needs a 100 MHz" CPU :)

With optics resolving power it is the same. People just don't know how much it will matter in the following years.


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Dec 23, 2016 16:20 |  #94

CheshireCat wrote in post #18221877 (external link)
Well.. with the big difference that optics sharpness directly affects resolving power, while GHz do not directly affect computing power :)

Computing power is never enough, yet many people said "oh, no one needs a 100 MHz" CPU :)

With optics resolving power it is the same. People just don't know how much it will matter in the following years.

well take the 5D4 w/ it's dpaf... really it's like a 60mp camera. Canon has already prototyped one 120mp camera... wonder what the outcome of that will be. Even if they find diminishing results on glass they "could" release it just for bragging rights.


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Dec 23, 2016 16:50 |  #95

Talley wrote in post #18221888 (external link)
well take the 5D4 w/ it's dpaf... really it's like a 60mp camera. Canon has already prototyped one 120mp camera... wonder what the outcome of that will be. Even if they find diminishing results on glass they "could" release it just for bragging rights.

Like I said, I would love to go around with a 21mm lens and crop to 400mm equivalent ;)


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Wilt
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Dec 23, 2016 16:52 |  #96

Talley wrote in post #18221888 (external link)
well take the 5D4 w/ it's dpaf... really it's like a 60mp camera. Canon has already prototyped one 120mp camera... wonder what the outcome of that will be. Even if they find diminishing results on glass they "could" release it just for bragging rights.

Only 210 MBytes per RAW file to store...oh joy.


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Dec 23, 2016 18:03 |  #97

Wilt wrote in post #18221918 (external link)
Only 210 MBytes per RAW file to store...oh joy.

That'll be a joke in 3 years.


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Dec 23, 2016 18:05 as a reply to  @ CheshireCat's post |  #98

Capacity may not be an issue, but how many hours/days to backup or restore your data will be too painful to laugh about.


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Dec 23, 2016 18:11 |  #99

Wilt wrote in post #18221996 (external link)
Capacity may not be an issue, but how many hours/days to backup or restore your data will be too painful to laugh about.

Well now that xfinity switched to 1TB limits that may hurt us all :(


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Post edited over 6 years ago by CheshireCat.
     
Dec 23, 2016 18:12 |  #100

Wilt wrote in post #18221996 (external link)
Capacity may not be an issue, but how many hours/days to backup or restore your data will be too painful to laugh about.

At 200 MBps it's one of those huge images per second. If you shoot 100 good images per day, your backup will take less time than you need to drink your morning coffee ;)


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Dec 23, 2016 19:13 as a reply to  @ CheshireCat's post |  #101

Not all of us can get fast data connections...I am max'd out unless I am willing to pay another company three times as much per month.


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Dec 23, 2016 19:47 |  #102

Wilt wrote in post #18222045 (external link)
Not all of us can get fast data connections...I am max'd out unless I am willing to pay another company three times as much per month.

http://www.jpegmini.co​m/ (external link)


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Dec 23, 2016 22:50 as a reply to  @ Talley's post |  #103

JPEGmini works on CR2?!


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Dec 23, 2016 22:57 |  #104

Wilt wrote in post #18222045 (external link)
Not all of us can get fast data connections...I am max'd out unless I am willing to pay another company three times as much per month.

I am talking about local backup, but the additional cloud backup would not be a problem at normal Internet speeds. It runs in the background, so who cares if it takes all day ;)


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Dec 23, 2016 23:09 |  #105

Wilt wrote in post #18222216 (external link)
JPEGmini works on CR2?!

Nope. JPEGmini is just an optimized JPEG compressor.

We are talking about lossy JPEG here, and the "magic" is killing the information the average human doesn't probably notice.


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