Camera manufacturers killing proper hobby photography ?

hmmm, sometimes I forget to read past the first few posts... clearly.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18243615
hmmm, sometimes I forget to read past the first few posts... clearly.

Jake,

This is one thread that I think is very worthwhile. Reading ALL of the posts might be a really good idea, because this thread is packed cram full of a bunch of great info, much of which is factual and statistical in nature, and which utterly dispels the OP's conjecture that Canon is killing hobby photography.

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Hogloff wrote in post #18243489
With all this talk about grammar...let's not forget POTn is not restricted to English speaking members. Many members here are from countries where English is not their native tongue.

Yes, it's something to keep in mind. That point comes up whenever the topic of good and bad writing does.

Pippan wrote in post #18243523
True, but I think our criticism is directed at mother tongue English speakers who should know better.

Absolutely. At least, I try to read past the errors and attend to the meaning, insofar as I can detect it. I do this no matter what I think a person's first language is. Using "should" in this context is questionable anyway. If someone really can't see the difference between "there" and "their," I don't understand why–do the two words look alike to some eyes? don't their spellings automatically call forth the appropriate meanings?–but I can't make a case for saying "You should know better." I can wish everyone got it right, but I can't justify calling getting it right a moral duty.

I do think checking one's work is common courtesy. Readers shouldn't have to figure out what you were trying to say. "Definitely" is in my signature because I've seen it rendered as "defiantly" so many times that I suspect "defiantly" is some autocorrect program's default choice.

Hogloff wrote in post #18243598
But how can you tell a person's mother tongue on the net? Is my mother tongue English?

You can't always tell. Some nonnative speakers write English better than most Americans. However, nonnative speakers who haven't mastered English like a native make different kinds of mistakes than native speakers who haven't mastered English as the school authorities wanted them to. Scam letters from overseas con artists read oddly in characteristic ways.

It's interesting, I've heard that English is a "comparatively difficult" language to learn/use, which seems strange to us "natives"!

I'd say a reason is that there are several aspects that come into play in our communication, kind of like if you are learning another language and have to learn the difference between "conversational" communication and, well, the more "technical" form of the language. And believe me, there is a difference! As a student of the German language in high school, I did OK academically, but then I recall having guests from Switzerland and one or two other countries, guests who used German as their conversational "tongue", and boy, I recall the hours sitting with a great friend who sat with me and coached me in talking in German conversationally, and she was strict about the lesson you learn in a decent "training center", that is that you don't use books and such, you have to actually converse in the language you're learning!

And then, with English, it seems to go a bit farther, where we have to pay attention to spelling, grammar, "proper usage", and then "style", where we develop different ways of expressing different "things", such as humor, feelings in our conversation, as well as the variety of "styles" used in writing in the English language, all of which can be a challenge both to native speakers as well as to non-native speakers!

Gosh, I remember, back when I was pouring through literature in my adult "advanced" years, I was reading and loving a lot of "classic" literature, and you'd note the care with which good writers would express themselves, although certainly in different "styles", but then I picked up a well-known book, my bad memory can't recall which, I think it was a well-known Irish book, and the book thrived on conversational communication and to me as an American it was pretty much unfathomable, and ended up just setting it aside, hey, at least I could wade an old book that just began with "My name is Ishmael" or "It was the best of times, it was the worst of time"!

tonylong wrote in post #18243761
It's interesting, I've heard that English is a "comparatively difficult" language to learn/use, which seems strange to us "natives"!

A poetic summary of how inconsistent English is

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=ZXa8cO9mXFk

I can't imagine having to learn it as an adult. Great spot about just that (note: NSFW at 1:32 but otherwise heartwarming)

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=tU5Rnd-HM6A

On topic, imo photography is more accessible now than it ever has been. The 5D4 is expensive, but so is a midrange PRS if you're into guitars. You can buy a second hand PC that's perfectly usable for $250 or you can shell out for a shiny new Mac Pro. Manufacturers are pushing the envelope at both the high and low ends.

Maybe I'm out in left field but I think it's a great time to be pursuing any technology based hobby.

Lee

And here I thought that this was a photography forum and not an english language forum. Many photographers are just that because they are not the best at communicating with language. And then add in that this forum is not limited to just english speaking members.

I have an idea, go take a photograph and post it to a photography forum.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18244008
And here I thought that this was a photography forum and not an english language forum. Many photographers are just that because they are not the best at communicating with language.

It's a photography forum, yes, but we also use words here. Some members have concerns, and strong feelings, about the way language is used. The only forbidden topics are religion and politics. Language isn't on that list. I agree that the thread has drifted off topic a few times. If it goes too far off, I guess the mods will say something and I'll go back to muttering to myself about the interesting differences in the way people think, visually and otherwise.

Many are photographers express themselves visually and words are not as important because it's not their primary way to communicate. If it were they might be writers. When you start going down this path what's next dissecting sentences? I am a HORRIBLE speller. When in college I needed a dictionary by my side and several people had to proof read my papers. Now when communicating with clients about really important things I will usually have a second pair of eyes double check. When I come to a photography forum the last thing I want is to be on an english education forum having my spelling and sentence structure corrected. I am articulate enough for those out there to usually get the drift. Most others I read here are also. Now go make some photographs everyone. English class is over (I hope)

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18244126
I am a HORRIBLE speller. . . . When I come to a photography forum the last thing I want is to be on an english education forum having my spelling and sentence structure corrected.

No one's been correcting your spelling and sentence structure. Everyone has strong and weak areas, that's no secret. I can't demand that photographers stop posting pictures of beautiful young women in the People and G&N forums because they remind me that I don't look like those models. When the pros talk about their careers, their fancy equipment, their studios and darkrooms, I can't say "Stop it! I don't make money from my pictures, and I never will." When members who are knowledgeable about computers–well, you get the idea.

I can't tell whether you'd like to spell better or you don't care because spelling isn't important to you. Either way, when people with an interest in language as well as photography talk about language, it isn't meant as a personal attack. Nobody's trying to shame the bad spellers, as far as I know. If you come to posts that seem irrelevant or too judgmental, they don't have to be a source of stress. Just dismiss them and wait for the regular discussion to resume. I'm sorry if this sounds presumptuous.

Agree most of us can't be good at everything and the left brained activity of both math and formal language is very different from the right brained creative world and though I did well in College in both of those areas in very basic classes that I had to take and grateful for that my focus as it is today is photography and again this is a photography forum. Spelling and grammar are important but only in regards to being able to communicate appropriately. I can do that. I have put my real energy into photography because there is where my talent and passion is.

But back to the fact that this is a photography forum and not an english/grammar forum. I'm sure there are those places out there. Many people that are good with rules that are required in formal english and math are in many cases not that great in the creative world and vise versa. We all have our strengths and I am very blessed that my accountant is great at what she does. I have a very good friend that is a wonderful writer and when I have to write an artist statement or anything that needs to be very well written I have him look at what I write and he makes suggestions and grammar corrections.

BTW I didn't take it as personal at all. I was just making a comment that this is a photography forum and thus I will put my energy into that and I maintain I am antiquate at the other as are many here but not near perfect. I do see people getting attacked at times here for language issues and in some of those cases it is being used to discredit them and their words by those that disagree with their ideas. Just because someone doesn't use the right there or their doesn't mean that their thoughts are right or wrong.

So are manufacturers killing photography as a hobby? No.

Cameras are to expensive as are many motorcycles. boats, watches, etc but they are what they are. If you have a desire to make photographic images there certainly are more options today than at any time in history. Find one option that fits your budget.

Are we back on track now?

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18244126
Many are photographers express themselves visually and words are not as important because it's not their primary way to communicate. If it were they might be writers.

My experiences have led me to different conclusions. Some of the best wildlife and nature photographers and artists I know are also very successful writers. This is because they communicate equally well with words (spoken or written) as they do with their visual work. Cases in point would be:

The late Ned Smith, who was most famous for his paintings, but who also made quite a living as a writer........and was also quite a good nature photographer, as he always took his camera afield with him to capture reference material and also to document his observations. I just bought two of his books off of eBay, and these books contain almost 200 pages of text and only a few small pen-and-ink drawings. He was a columnist for Pennsylvania Game News for +-30 years - that's over 360 columns!
http://www.nedsmithcen​ter.org/about-ned-smith/

Art Wolfe, who has published over 60 books, most of which feature a lot of text that he has written, in addition to the photographs. He also had his own TV program, in which he spoke quite a bit as the show host. As well as being considered a world-class photographer, he is also considered to be a journalist, as he has written countless in-depth articles about his photographic adventures that have reached millions of readers. He has also created a great mass of instructional content in the form of how-to articles and workshop instruction, as he leads many workshops in which he uses the spoken word to instruct his pupils. He is also busy as a public speaker.
https://en.wikipedia.o​rg/wiki/Art_Wolfe

A personal friend of mine, who is among the most widely published wildlife photographers in the world today. In addition to his prolific world-class nature photography, he is continually writing articles for magazines, and has just published his 7th book, which features more text than it does photos. He deeply researches every facet of the material that he writes about and is an extremely accomplished writer.
http://www.garykramer.​net

Quite similar to my friend who I just mentioned, there is Leonard Lee Rue III, who was the foremost North American wildlife photographer of the 1970s and 1980s, with his photos being used for over 1800 magazine covers. Yet he has also written literally thousands of published articles on the wildlife that he photographs. He has also published several books in which the photos are secondary to the text. In fact, he has received an Honorary Doctorate of Science by Colorado State University in Fort Collins for his "dissemination of knowledge about wildlife". He has won the "Excellence in Craft" award by the Outdoor Writers Association of America, and also won the Michael Award for "Excellence in Writing" by the New Jersey Association of Teachers of English.
http://www.ruewildlife​photos.com/index/about​_us

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18244126
English class is over (I hope)

And I hope that English class is never over! I love words and semantics and labels and definitions and grammar almost as much as I love to photograph wildlife!

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I just discovered this thread so I'm replying to the OP about prices. I think the prices of the new Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji are extremely high. They are as expensive as a Nikon D500 or even more expensive than Canon 7Dii. So I'm not changing to either of these brands, although I was considering it.
I haven't done research in US or Euro, this is what happens here in Oz.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18244732
My experiences have led me to different conclusions. Some of the best wildlife and nature photographers and artists I know are also very successful writers. This is because they communicate equally well with words (spoken or written) as they do with their visual work. Cases in point would be:

The late Ned Smith, who was most famous for his paintings, but who also made quite a living as a writer........and was also quite a good nature photographer, as he always took his camera afield with him to capture reference material and also to document his observations. I just bought two of his books off of eBay, and these books contain almost 200 pages of text and only a few small pen-and-ink drawings. He was a columnist for Pennsylvania Game News for +-30 years - that's over 360 columns!
http://www.nedsmithcen​ter.org/about-ned-smith/

Art Wolfe, who has published over 60 books, most of which feature a lot of text that he has written, in addition to the photographs. He also had his own TV program, in which he spoke quite a bit as the show host. As well as being considered a world-class photographer, he is also considered to be a journalist, as he has written countless in-depth articles about his photographic adventures that have reached millions of readers. He has also created a great mass of instructional content in the form of how-to articles and workshop instruction, as he leads many workshops in which he uses the spoken word to instruct his pupils. He is also busy as a public speaker.
https://en.wikipedia.o​rg/wiki/Art_Wolfe

A personal friend of mine, who is among the most widely published wildlife photographers in the world today. In addition to his prolific world-class nature photography, he is continually writing articles for magazines, and has just published his 7th book, which features more text than it does photos. He deeply researches every facet of the material that he writes about and is an extremely accomplished writer.
http://www.garykramer.​net

Quite similar to my friend who I just mentioned, there is Leonard Lee Rue III, who was the foremost North American wildlife photographer of the 1970s and 1980s, with his photos being used for over 1800 magazine covers. Yet he has also written literally thousands of published articles on the wildlife that he photographs. He has also published several books in which the photos are secondary to the text. In fact, he has received an Honorary Doctorate of Science by Colorado State University in Fort Collins for his "dissemination of knowledge about wildlife". He has won the "Excellence in Craft" award by the Outdoor Writers Association of America, and also won the Michael Award for "Excellence in Writing" by the New Jersey Association of Teachers of English.
http://www.ruewildlife​photos.com/index/about​_us

And I hope that English class is never over! I love words and semantics and labels and definitions and grammar almost as much as I love to photograph wildlife!

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Tom I said many not all. And last time I looked when we post here we weren't writing articles we were just exchanging ideas about photography and showing a few photographs from time to time. In many cases not enough of the photography part. Lets start an english thread and maybe then we can get back to topic here or no? Class dismissed

BTW I wrote a piece that was in Viewfinder Magazine last year that accompanied 13 of my photographs and what is appropriate there is not necessary or needed chatting on a photography forum.

On the bright side, if 'everyone is a photographer these days' due to smart phones, and compact sales have collapsed as a result, we'll really stand out as serious photographers/pro's with DSLR's, so an ego boost there if anyone needs one

They are well built, not your grandfather's Sigma that's for sure. Not quite Canon L build, but Sigma and Tamron are both putting out well-built products, at least on a par with Nikon and in some ways better.