Camera manufacturers killing proper hobby photography ?

Luckless wrote in post #18234225
Snapshots taken in an exceptionally casual way, with little to no thought or effort put into them?

But that is not exceptional; rather, it is the norm.

.

Nathan wrote in post #18234201
...
Y'Know... It's getting harder to explain to people it's not the camera, it's the photographer. Now, every hobbyist thinks he can be a professional. Every casual shooter, with the right technology, can be a hobbyist, too.

How true. From time to time family member ask to borrow my camera because "it takes such nice pictures". If the request is in person, I hand them my camera. The response is puzzlement and 'how do you use this thing?' I usually reply something like, 'Do you know how to use yours?' - "Yes." It never takes more than a few seconds to sink in.

At least in the U.S., as the middle class shrinks, the market for all kinds of goods changes. What's available has been splitting into two categories, with less between them. It's easier to find luxury items and cheap stuff than it used to be, and harder to find plain decent-quality products. For example, Macy's is closing some stores. The same thing is happening with restaurants where I live. When one closes, it's likely replaced with a more upscale version, fancier food, smaller servings, higher prices. At the other end of "dining out," fast-food chains abound.

Might this change in the distribution of income and wealth affect the market for cameras and lenses?

I'm in total agreement. It's why people go grey. In Dec 2014 I bought a 70D. Authorised dealer price with kit lens and 1yr warranty £949.00 sterling. I bought grey market with 3yr warranty (has been repaired at Canon authorised repairer in September needing new mainboard goodness knows what authorized dealer would have charged as would've been out of warranty if I'd bought approved) for £659.00. And canon's Uk pricing is a joke. At launch the UK price was £1075.00 and US was $1099. If (at that time, not now) you converted $ to £ then in £ the $ price was approximately £350.00 cheaper. I had a letter published in Digital Camera World and Canon's reply put it own to shipping costs and regional price differences. I've now seen goods with a HIGHER £ price than the $ price 5Div being one example, even though there's more than $1 to the pound, even though the exchange rate's fallen a lot.
As for falling sales and rising prices, the companies for whatever goods target the demography spending the most on a certain type of product be it entry level or top end. And in today's market, it's the ones buying full frame spending the most on lenses and accessories. So Canon and Nikon target that group. In 1994 Kodak/Nikon made a 13mp DSLR, but targeted the people who were willing to spend £1K on a point and shoot. TBH, the companies price at what they think they can squeeze out of the customer, and if it's not selling, cut the price or introduce a better spec model at the same price. A lot of the mark up is manufacturers minimum selling price, which DOES go on. About 5 years ago a midlands based small retailer complained to Amateur Photographer magazine that Amazon UK were selling cameras cheaper to the public than it costs him to buy wholesale from Canon's wholesale partner. Where is the logic in that?
In summary, it might not be as bad for USA consumers, but here in the UK I'd say the OP is pretty much bang on the buck.

Bassat wrote in post #18234236
How true. From time to time family member ask to borrow my camera because "it takes such nice pictures".

It's becoming less, "take the time to commit and learn the craft" and more "spend enough money and you can do it, too." That's what camera manufacturers are banking on.

I have a sense that it's more than economics. It's social psychology. In modern consumer society, we want things and we want them now. I feel that there's less about learning and exploring and developing oneself... rather, it's more about how to achieve the end result, put it out there on social media for self gratification.

People more are willing to pay the higher price of goods if it promises better results... people are less willing to pay the price of commitment and investing in the journey.

OhLook wrote in post #18234238
At least in the U.S., as the middle class shrinks, the market for all kinds of goods changes. What's available has been splitting into two categories, with less between them. It's easier to find luxury items and cheap stuff than it used to be, and harder to find plain decent-quality products. For example, Macy's is closing some stores. The same thing is happening with restaurants where I live. When one closes, it's likely replaced with a more upscale version, fancier food, smaller servings, higher prices. At the other end of "dining out," fast-food chains abound.

Might this change in the distribution of income and wealth affect the market for cameras and lenses?

It might in the US, but there is a huge surge of middle class being created in places like China and India which eclipses the decline of the middle class in the US.

By the way... on the topic of UK versus US price differences, isn't the price inflation also true for most, if not all, tech products? iPhones, Macbooks, Xboxes, etc.?

Nathan wrote in post #18234328
By the way... on the topic of UK versus US price differences, isn't the price inflation also true for most, if not all, tech products? iPhones, Macbooks, Xboxes, etc.?

Isn't there a 20% VAT in the UK that takes it's toll?

That's what I'm wondering.

drmaxx wrote in post #18234412
Isn't there a 20% VAT in the UK that takes it's toll?

Nathan wrote in post #18234482
That's what I'm wondering.

Yes in the UK it is a requirement to display all prices including our now current 20% VAT rate, while prices in the US are always shown less any sales taxes, and I beleive that they might include local, city and state sales taxes, although generally I think they tend to be in the five to ten percent range. Even so it makes a significant difference when comparing prices. Also for some items other considerations skew the perception of price/value. There are two products from Canon that I think show this very well. The first is the price/cost of the new 24-105 L, which is about $100 in the US, and I guess a similar amount more here in the UK than the RRP of the old lens. We know that generally Canon leave the RRP alone, but that prices in shops will drop gradually over time. Many people feel that the new lens in not $100 more than the old, but almost double the price, simply because Canon have included that lens over the years bundled with the high end consumer cameras at a considerable discount to the body only price. This has led to many camera dealers breaking up kits, and selling the lens at a significant discount on the "full retail" version, while making a lot more profit overall. This has simply reduced the perceived value of the item, because there is enough demand that most people in the know will be buying "white box" not retail. This also happens to an extent in the UK. The new model is exactly that, new. So it has not yet been widely packaged with cameras, so there is no source for inordinately discounted "white box" versions yet. The other Canon product I'm thinking of is the Pixma Pro 100 printer, which here in the UK retails for around £375, and has a usual retail price that is very similar in the US, when those 20% taxes are taken into account, Oh and there is a good possibility of getting stung by them on a personal import too. Still in the US Canon run very regular promotions where they basically give one of the printers away with camera kits. They do this enough that there is quite a large market in secondhand NIB Pixma Pro 100 printers, and the average price for one of these seems to be around $100. So now one sees a perception at least from the American members of POTN that that printer is "cheap" because it is a $100 printer. I see today that at B&H for example the printer is $379.99, but after a mail in rebate it is only $129! One is sued to printer manufacturers using printers as loss leaders, to sell ink where the real profits lie, but if you shop around you can get similar discounts of Canon OEM inks and papers. If Canon releases a replacement for the Pro 100 and it only sells at $399, I guess that a lot of people would also complain that it was far too expensive, because of the really big discounts that they have now got used to.

Oh and for the gun types, unfortunately for me I'm an Anschutz shooter, and my daughter prefers Walther! At least my new in 1987, with a 1984 proof mark 1813 is still competitive, to the degree that my daughter was using it when shooting in the GB Junior Squad. I also managed to pick it up at about a 30% discount on the RRP, because I walked into a dealer who had ordered it for a customer, who had not gone ahead, so it had sat on the shelf for three years till I chanced across it. We also got a very good deal on my daughters Walther LG400, £1200 instead of £1899, because she knew an ex Walther factory supported shooter, who used those contacts to get us a good deal. Sometimes you just have to be lucky. My two secondhand Anschutz rifles came in at £50 for a 1964 1411, and £30 for a pre 1962 basic sporter. But the secondhand firearms market in the UK is very different to that in the US, and at times it severely depresses the prices of secondhand kit, while we tend to pay more for new stuff on the whole. But then all of this stuff is discretional expenditure, and I think many many sales of cameras, guns (where they are not controlled to the extent they are in the UK) and other leaisure goods are often made on a whim, and will often be used for a few weeks or maybe months, then put in a cupboard with the last fad item. At least these can at times make it easy for those without much disposable income to have some nice toys, without the large expense that buying new entails.

Alan

Nathan wrote in post #18234301
It's becoming less, "take the time to commit and learn the craft" and more "spend enough money and you can do it, too." That's what camera manufacturers are banking on.

I have a sense that it's more than economics. It's social psychology. In modern consumer society, we want things and we want them now. I feel that there's less about learning and exploring and developing oneself... rather, it's more about how to achieve the end result, put it out there on social media for self gratification.

People more are willing to pay the higher price of goods if it promises better results... people are less willing to pay the price of commitment and investing in the journey.

How true. My 7 year old grandson knows more about operating a DSLR than most new purchasers. We like to spend time together. He knows I like camera stuff. He wants to learn. He understands shutter half-press, BBAF, and framing. If this kid ever gets into photography, he'll never use 'green box'. His hands are so small that he still struggles with zooming, though. I can hand him my 6D/35IS and he will get a reasonable shot out of it. His mother is 33 and struggles with her S100.

Yes we have vat in the UK. But most states sales tax is between two and 10%. Some are dearer, and some have none at all. Still works out a lot dearer here in the UK. Used is a better route if you don't want L series, which hold their value. But still, it's hiking prices. As for other products being the same, it varies by product type. Some are similar if not worse (ߍ for example), other product types are more closely price matched. If the US had a countrywide sales tax, the difference in prices would be more transparently obvious. Succesive right wing (Including Tony Blair's Labour administration) UK governments have not changed the way businesses can set what price they like without interfering. The previous Labour government had the right idea, a prices commission, under which price hikes had to be justified. Baroness Margaret Thatcher's first act was to close it down.

My understanding of the cost of goods to the end user have to factor in currency exchange fluctuations (for same number of Yet to HQ, a variable number of GBP have to be sent back per Yen), there is VAT which - depending upon the specific goods - carry +20% or +5% or +0% markup. And then there are sales taxes based upon location of the point of sales.

1. higher manufacturing cost, due to new tooling expenses
   
2. decision by HQ that it needs to increase its margin
   
3. (speculative on my part...) tactical decision to offer goods at lower margins to one Distributor vs. another
   
4. currency exchange rate fluctuations more favorable for one geography than another (e.g. USD stronger against Yen, vs. GBP being weaker against Yen)
   
5. applications tariffs (e.g. VAT in UK at 0% or 5% or 20%)
   
6. distributor's need for more margin to cover expenses of advertising/warranty repairs of goods
   

Wilt - you present a very engineering point of view. Economist have the same flowpath - but all (most) arrows pointing the other way. The key question for an economist is, how much can I charge for the item and how do I position that in my lineup within the market. The rest is then more or less derived from that. Pricing has little to do with real costs - it has everything to do with identifying the willingness of the customers to pay for something.

drmaxx wrote in post #18235594
Wilt - you present a very engineering point of view. Economist have the same flowpath - but all (most) arrows pointing the other way. The key question for an economist is, how much can I charge for the item and how do I position that in my lineup within the market. The rest is then more or less derived from that. Pricing has little to do with real costs - it has everything to do with identifying the willingness of the customers to pay for something.

This is exactly right and is the main reason why so many engineering driven companies fail. They drive the selling price from their costs rather than the other way.